Dysgenics, Overpopulation and Conventional Ignorance
These days, most people seem to believe that overpopulation is not a problem, although the reasons for that belief differ. Also, most people view eugenics as both evil and unnecessary. The conventional “wisdom” on these topics is wrong. Overpopulation and dysgenics are serious problems. If we don’t solve these problems, they will destroy modern civilization.
The idea that overpopulation is not a problem is usually based on the evidence of recent history: that we have been able to expand food production to keep up with population growth for a hundred years or so, and thus (I guess the reasoning goes) we will be able to keep doing this…forever?? The absurdity of this is pretty obvious.
Imagine that you are walking up a mountain in the fog. You can’t see the top of the mountain, and it might take longer than you expected to reach the top. Just because you can’t see the top, and haven’t reached it yet, that doesn’t mean the mountain is infinitely tall. Just because we haven’t reached the limits of growth yet, it doesn’t follow that we never will.
Here’s another analogy. Suppose that you have a box of chocolates. You greedily eat all the chocolates over a few days. When they are finished, however, you discover that there is another layer of chocolates under a cardboard separator. Does that mean you have a magic box of chocolates that never runs out? No, it just means that there were more chocolates than you originally thought. Did lifting the separator create the chocolates underneath? No. It might have required some ingenuity to discover the chocolates, but the ingenuity didn’t create the chocolates.
Finite resources are like a box of chocolates. You can’t go on consuming them forever.
Was Malthus proven wrong by recent history? Well, I don’t know what Malthus said exactly, because I have never read Malthus. From what I have heard, Malthus said that agricultural production grows linearly and population grows exponentially, and so population will outpace agricultural production. If that’s what he said, then he was wrong, because agricultural production can also grow exponentially in the short run.
The correct argument is simply that limits exist, and so neither agricultural production nor population can grow forever, regardless of whether it grows linearly, exponentially, logarithmically or any other way. That is a logical conclusion from the simple fact that the Earth is finite, and of course it has never been disproven.
So, whether Malthus was right or not, it is certainly true that populations are ultimately limited by scarcity. Every species has the potential to reproduce to excess, including human beings. Any species without this capacity would go extinct. Evolution selects for traits that maximize successful reproduction, which is essentially the number of offspring that live to reproduce themselves. The potential for explosive (exponential) population growth is built into the nature of life.
Given a good environment, the population of a species will grow exponentially. The increased population will then cause greater competition for resources (scarcity). Increased competition will make the environment worse for the species, until its population stops growing. Abundance causes population growth, which causes scarcity, which limits population growth. That is how the population of every species is regulated, including the human population.
In most times and places, the human population was regulated by premature death: by children dying from war, disease and famine. That is another obvious fact that most people are woefully ignorant of. The normal condition of life is harsh: a struggle for existence in which most children die before maturity.
During the last few hundred years, the human population has exploded, because we discovered a new source of energy (fossil fuels) and invented new technologies to use that energy. New energy and new technology created a period of abundance. This sort of thing has happened before, on smaller scales. Whenever humans discover a new environment, such as the Americas, or a new method of food production, such as agriculture, they have a population explosion that stops when they reach the limits of the new environment or the new method of food production. Human populations have exploded and reached limits before, in many different times and places.
When humans discovered agriculture, and were able to expand their population beyond the limits of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, did the population grow forever? No, of course not. The population grew until it reached the limit of the new method of food production, and then it stopped.
The idea that the industrial revolution disproves limits is beyond stupid. It is simply insane. Yes, we have found ways to expand our population and economy. It does not follow that we can do so forever. The modern era of abundance is based on consuming a finite stock of fossil fuels. It is not the result of magic.
Population explosions often lead to overshoot and collapse rather than just an end to growth, either because the growth phase destroys the underlying basis of food production (e.g. intensive agriculture causing soil erosion), or because scarcity creates conflict, which leads to greater scarcity. A vicious cycle can cause catastrophic collapse when limits are reached after a prolonged period of growth. A catastrophic collapse is very likely to occur when modern civilization reaches its limits. We are destroying the finite resource on which our civilization depends (fossil fuels), and our social order depends on abundance and growth.
“But, but…” I hear the libertarians saying, “We can expand into space! The Earth is finite, but space is essentially infinite.”
Okay, I will deal with that incredibly naive objection.
We can’t escape from the Earth’s limits by going into space, because going into space requires a huge amount of energy, and there is nothing worth going into space to get and bring back. There is nowhere else in the solar system that could support human life without complex technology, and so it would be a practical impossibility to colonize anywhere else in the solar system. A colony on Mars would always depend on the Earth. It would never provide any net benefit to the Earth. A colony on Mars would not extend the resources of the Earth. It would be a drain on them. We certainly can’t move our population off the Earth, because it would require a huge amount of energy, and there is nowhere else that can support life. Even if we could get to Mars as easily as we can get to Antarctica, we wouldn’t have anything more than a small scientific outpost there, for the same reason that we only have a small scientific outpost in Antarctica: it’s a shitty place for human beings. Mars is at least ten thousand times harder to get to than Antarctica, and about a billion times shittier.
Space does not extend the Earth’s resources. The Earth is finite and growth is limited.
“But, but…” I hear the humanists saying, “There is no need to worry about overpopulation, because people choose low fertility when they have a good standard of living. If we raise Africans out of poverty, then their fertility will fall. Fertility in the developed world is already below replacement. Thus, there is no reason to worry about overpopulation. It will fix itself.”
No, it won’t. The human population will not be limited by voluntary low fertility, because voluntary low fertility is self-eliminating.
In an environment of abundance, in which most offspring live to adulthood, high fertility is selected for. Even if most people choose low fertility today, by doing so they select against the traits that make people choose low fertility. The future is determined by who shows up. Human nature (like the nature of every other type of life) is determined by who reproduces. Those who reproduce pass their traits on.
Modern abundance has not taken the struggle out of life. It has just changed the nature of that struggle, from a struggle over resources to a breeding contest. Today, whoever has the most kids wins.
It’s true that most people in developed societies choose to have few or no children. That doesn’t mean that most people in the future will have low fertility. Why? Because people in the future have to be born, and more of them will be born to people with high fertility than low fertility. Even if almost everyone chooses low fertility, those with higher fertility will simply outbreed them in a few generations. I have gone through these arguments before, so I won’t bother to elaborate on them here. I will just say that the Amish alone, at their current rate of growth, could replace the entire world population in less than 300 years.
The future is not predicted by the average behavior of people today. The future is predicted by who is reproducing today. That is the fundamental principle of evolution. What is normal today will be extinct in the future if it doesn’t reproduce.
Now let’s consider whether eugenics has ever been disproven or discredited. What is the argument against eugenics?
There isn’t any rational argument against eugenics. People just decided that eugenics is morally wrong, for no rational reason. This seems to have occurred in the 1960s, as the myth of WWII was being constructed. Eugenics was linked to Nazism, although it wasn’t specific to Nazi Germany. Eugenics was a fairly popular idea in the 1920s and 1930s among educated people, for good reasons. Somehow, in the conventional “wisdom” (ignorance), eugenics was linked to the Nazis and equated with genocide or mass murder, even though it doesn’t imply either of those things. Eugenics is now considered to be evil, along with other forms of biological realism and pragmatism.
Eugenics is just selecting for traits that we value in other human beings, such as intelligence and responsibility. No matter what we do, the social environment places selective pressures on the human genome. Eugenics means that we consciously choose to select for traits that make people better members of society.
Making people better doesn’t sound like such a horrible thing, but it does imply that people aren’t born equal, and so it conflicts with the humanist belief in the intrinsic value and equality of human beings. The racial aspect of dysgenics makes it even more taboo. Not only are individuals unequal, races are also unequal. Eugenics doesn’t require racial genocide, but any race-blind eugenics program would affect racial demographics.
Instead of dealing with the moral and social issues involved, our culture just pretends that evolution doesn’t apply to humans. This is not rational. It is willful ignorance.
Eugenics could be done by simply requiring people to meet certain conditions before they are allowed to have a child, such as having a certain level of income and no serious criminal record.
We don’t allow people to indiscriminately kill one another, or even drive without a license, so why do we allow people to indiscriminately give birth to children? We don’t (or shouldn’t) allow people to enter our societies at will by walking across borders, so why do we allow parents to bring people into our societies at will through vaginas? Eugenic reproduction control is a reasonable limitation on individual freedom, and it should be no more controversial than requiring a license to drive or having criteria for immigration.
Eugenics was never discredited or disproven rationally. It was just declared to be “evil”.
The genome is not stable without positive selection. Even without dysgenic fertility or selection, the genome would gradually degrade by mutation. Random noise is always being added to the genome by mutation, and it must be removed to maintain the quality of the genome. What removes mutations? Selection, or in other words, differential reproduction. That selection can come from differential fertility or differential survival to adulthood.
It is a serious problem that the global IQ is falling because of dysgenic fertility. IQ is not a direct measure of intelligence. It is just a measure of one’s ability to take IQ tests, and it can be improved with practice. However, it is a good proxy for a certain type of intelligence (abstract reasoning), and it is predictive of social and economic outcomes, such as income and criminality. With other factors taken into account (such as capitalism vs. communism and natural resources), IQ also predicts the outcomes of societies. Higher IQ people create societies that are better by a lot of standard metrics. Lower IQ people create societies that are worse by a lot of standard metrics.
For now, industrialization is still raising the global standard of living (and the global rate of fossil fuel consumption), but a growing population and falling IQ will eventually reverse that trend. Overpopulation and dysgenics both lead inexorably toward civilizational collapse. They lead back to the ancestral condition in which our population is regulated by war, disease and famine. There is only one way that we can have peace and prosperity in the long run: eugenic reproduction control.
The human population of the Earth will be regulated somehow. It cannot grow forever, because the Earth is finite. It will not settle into a pattern of voluntary low fertility, because that behavior is selected against by evolution.
If we do not impose reproduction control on our population, it will grow until modern civilization collapses and scarcity returns. Then the population will be regulated by war, disease and famine, as it was in the past.
Likewise, the human genome will be regulated somehow. There is existing variation in the human genome, and mutation is always adding random noise. The natural process of regulating the genome is premature death. By socially guaranteeing the survival of all children, we are allowing the genome to degrade by mutation. We are also making evolution into a breeding contest, in which any trait that increases fertility is selected for. This will gradually eliminate the traits that make civilization possible, such as intelligence, creativity and anxiety, because those traits are negatively correlated with fertility in this environment. To maintain those traits, we need to select for them.
If we do not regulate the genome with eugenics, it will degrade until our civilization collapses. Then the genome will be regulated by war, disease and famine, as it was in the past.
If we regulate our population and genome with eugenic reproduction control, we could sustain modern civilization and prosperity indefinitely. Otherwise, our civilization will collapse, and we will return to a condition of life in which the population and the genome are regulated by war, disease and famine. There are no other alternatives.
Do you really think low fertility being self eliminating is such a given? Like, to use a personal example. do you think your children are going to have large families just because their father came to the philosophical conclusion that the meaning of life is reproduction?
ReplyDeleteI think the way nature selects for high or against low fertility in this environment is a lot more flexible than you suggest.
Yes, it is guaranteed. It is a simple logical deduction from basic principles.
DeleteMy kids are more likely to have large families than the children of a liberal humanist, but that's just one example and not very relevant.
We don't have to know the specific details of how it will happen to know that it will happen. It could happen by Islamification, the rise of a new belief system that promotes reproduction, civilizational collapse, the human species going extinct, or in some other way. It will happen one way or another, simply because low fertility is not evolutionarily stable.
If you have some counter-argument, what is it?
Catholic priests practiced voluntary low fertility and the Church hasn't ran out of them in a thousand years, how is that? Same goes for Buddhist monks. Peer pressure and cultural assimilation are more useful top down heuristics than reproductive permits imo. Like half of the Amish didn't return home either, up until recently iirc.
DeleteDiseases can exist. The plague killed people for thousands of years...how is that? Because evolution takes time, the disease doesn't kill everyone, and because the disease evolves too.
DeleteI don't know any Catholic priests. They aren't very common. At the time of Luther they were notoriously corrupt and having quite a bit of sex, then the Reformation happened, etc.
Yeah, the Amish lost a lot of young people....until they didn't. Eventually their gene pool was selected to have the complex behavioral trait of choosing to be Amish. We don't know what genes were involved, but after generations of selection, the Amish now choose to be Amish. That choice implicitly includes the choice to have many children.
You're not making a counter-argument. You're just appealing to complexity. The world is complex, so lots of things can happen and we can't predict precisely what will happen. Evolutionary theory doesn't predict that no one will ever choose not to reproduce. It does predict, with 100% certainty (setting aside philosophical skepticism), that low fertility will be eliminated.
You also just waved your hand in the general direction of peer pressure and cultural assimilation without giving an actual solution. You claimed, without any argument, that these vague notions would somehow solve the problem better than a clearly defined and argued solution.
Anyway, I don't want to have an involved debate in the comments section. If you want to debate in voice let me know.
My point was really just that with the right heuristics applied to the right populations, trouble could be postponed almost indefinitely. Also, let's take the logical conclusion of your proposal. 10k years into the future where everyone is a 190 IQ ugly fat Hasidic neckbeard with a hard on for breeding, carrying capacity since long reached despite the futuristic technology, are you going to deny 75% of society the right to have a family at the danger of permanent sterilisation? Doesn't sound very feasible to me.
DeleteFirst, no, you can't postpone trouble indefinitely. You can't transcend evolution by appealing to complexity and/or ignorance. That might work in a debate, but not against evolution.
DeleteSecond, "10k years into the future where everyone is a 190 IQ ugly fat Hasidic neckbeard with a hard on for breeding" is not the logical conclusion of my proposal. What is the name for that fallacy? The "make up random bullshit" fallacy?
Third, why are you afraid to debate in voice?
Why would I be afraid of a middle aged family man who still watches anime, sounds like a virginal schoolgirl and self-identifies as an autist? I was being respectful during the whole time and you afforded yourself a quite inappropriate tone from the second comment onwards, almost as if you were looking for a fight. If this is how you want to run things then OK, good luck finding a willing audience.
DeleteThou dost protest too much, lol.
DeleteYeah, I don't know why you are so afraid....innate cowardice perhaps? Obviously at some level you know that you'd lose a debate, and I'm sure you are very ego invested in your ideology, so losing a debate would be very painful. But it's hard for me to know exactly why you are so afraid, and so obsessed with me.
And no, you weren't being respectful. You were being snarky. You think I can't recognize a bad faith comment when I see one? I've been on the internet for quite a while. When someone says "Do you really think X?" that's a passive aggressive insulting way of saying "You're an idiot for believing X". It's not a request for information. So cry some more, lol. I was no more disrespectful than you.
Anyway, I know you want the last word, so I'll delete any further comments you make on this thread. Instead of obsessing about me, go do something productive.
What is the percentage of people who would be denied access to reproduction under your rules? It’s easy to say “just prevent serious criminals and impoverished people from doing it”. But who are we going to qualify as not having enough resources?
ReplyDeleteDo you have an idea of just how much income for one child is needed, and what percentage of people in developed civilizations would be unable to reproduce because of that standard? Do we need to have a higher amount of income for each additional child?
If the monetary thing is just a sneaky way of testing for IQ, wouldn’t it just be easier to test for IQ? Do you plan on testing for IQ in addition to money? You say “such as” when listing things that can be controlled for, implying you have more ideas. What are those ideas?
Do you plan on increasing the standards of who shouldn’t be allowed to reproduce over time? You state that mutations occur naturally to the genome, and associate that with an affluent environment. This implies that you would have to increase your standards indefinitely since you’re wishing to limit reproduction to the worlds most affluent (and not immune) people. Can everyone else really trust you and your allies to be honest and consistent to them?
Unless the people we discourage from doing this are a very small, clearly defined, and manageable group of people (for example, incest, rape, gay couples using surrogacy, and pedophilia are niche cases which can and should be discouraged in whatever ways we can), you risk having a serious mass mob on your hands that you clearly do not want to exist. You know that low IQ and poverty are correlated with crime. These people commit more violence without being explicitly told “hey you can’t reproduce because you’re inferior”. What’s your plan on keeping them under control when you’re enforcing the strictest form of biopower onto them? Unless it’s a very small number of people, we won’t be able to keep them from revolting and we obviously won’t be at peace. That’s all if this were actually made into law; The chances of this ever becoming a popular enough idea to be proposed as a law anywhere and then accepted is seemingly zero. This is not anywhere close to viable in Canada or the US. You offer “peace and society” to people you assume have both already, and ask for them to be sterilized or forced to have an abortion because they are poor. Would you ever make that trade?
This comment is unfortunately long, but just to make it clear from the other comments I’ve seen: I have no intention of having a verbal debate with you. Verbal debates between two randoms on the internet are almost always scams initiated by one party to try to “own” the other one in a way that you cannot easily do when you are communicating with words on their own. If you didn’t believe that typing online was meaningful enough on its own then you would delete your blog and stick to your YouTube channel. And your YouTube channel is comparatively tiny, I have absolutely nothing to gain from organizing a debate with you for your humble number of fans.
DeleteThere's no fixed percentage. The requirement is to have the means to support a child in comfort and security, and to not have committed any serious crimes.
The income level would be determined by society, according to its norms. You could take the current social safety net as the norm, so people would have to earn more than the current welfare system would provide. So, whatever you think is adequate for a social safety net, imagine that is the standard: welfare plus the cost of schooling a child, and the cost of other common goods provided by society (e.g. roads, etc.). The family should not be a burden on society: that is the main issue.
The monetary thing is not a test for IQ, and IQ is not a valid basis for eugenics. Society needs productive, responsible people with a mix of abilities and personality traits. Selecting for one trait, such as IQ, would not be eugenic. E.g. a person could have terrible liver function, terrible kidney function, congenital skin cancer, etc., be psychopathic or lazy, and still have a high IQ.
There would be no need to change the standards over time. Mutations are always occurring, but as long as you have selection, they will be removed. If the quality of the genome degrades, fewer people will meet the standard, increasing the selective pressure and decreasing the population.
Can you trust me and my allies to do the right thing? I'm not running for a political position. I'm simply explaining what is necessary to sustain modern civilization. I have no magic formula to gain social power, nor do I have any magic formula for preventing corruption. Every government has the problem of corruption.
Currently, governments are destroying the quality of the genome by subsidizing reproduction. That is a type of harmful behavior by government. Some governments have nuclear weapons. Do you trust the government to wield that power on your behalf? The government defines standards for the quality of food, water, air, etc. If they're corrupt, they might do a bad job!!!!! That's inescapable. Governments need power to govern. They already have enormous power.
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The less productive and responsible members of society pose no problem. People who are not productive cannot do much against productive people. (Productive means "can do things".) Irresponsible people can't form functioning societies. So, they pose no threat whatsoever. Also, they don't really care about reproducing. Their reproduction is mostly due to irresponsibility and/or a way to extract resources (more welfare).
DeleteThere are some religious communities who would push back. For them, I would simply give them a chunk of land, cut off all support, and allow them to create their own catastrophe, as a demonstration of the consequences of uncontrolled reproduction.
The program isn't "you can't reproduce because you're inferior". The program is "to reproduce, you must be productive and responsible". Everyone has the opportunity. Those who can't meet the criteria will still be treated as members of society, given protection and a safety net. They will just be restricted from reproducing until they can support a child. As for serious criminals, we already put them in prison.
Yes, I agree that this probably won't happen in the West. It might happen in China, idk. We are probably doomed.
Again, I'm simply pointing out the only way to have a sustainable modern civilization. I expect modern civilization to collapse and billions to die, followed by a long dark age, and probably no return to industrial civilization. Unfortunately, humans are generally stupid and dishonest. I have no illusions about it. I'm just explaining how we could have a long-term sustainable, prosperous and peaceful civilization. I can't make it happen by myself.
Of course, I would agree to a social contract in which parents must be productive and responsible. If I was an unproductive person, would I resent society not subsidizing my reproduction, but only subsidizing my existence? I don't think so, but people can complain about almost anything.
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The point of having a verbal debate is that it cuts through the bullshit. In text, people can simply ignore what I say and go on babbling ad nauseam. Or, they can just leave without admitting that they are wrong and I am right. They have no real skin in the game.
DeleteSo, if you won't debate in voice, don't waste my time making further comments, or asking for more explanations, etc.
I think most comments on the internet are insincere attempts to "own" the other person, and yours is no exception. You throw out a whole bunch of potential criticisms, and hope that one sticks. Why? To "own" me. Not to understand my position. If you were actually interested, you would want to discuss the ideas in a medium that allows for back-and-forth communication, clarification of ideas and terms, etc. But clearly, you don't.
I have answered all of your questions, but I'm sure that you will ignore all of my responses. You never had any desire to understand my ideas.
I think typing on the internet can have some value, but comments generally don't. They're typically just lazy attempts to "own" someone. And that's why, at the end of your comment, you felt the need to point out how tiny my channel is and how few fans I have, etc. It's all been done before, and it's boring. If you think typing on the internet is so valuable, go make your own primary content on a blog, so others can make stupid comments under it.
Or just try thinking. If you had approached the content with an open mind, you could have answered those questions yourself.