What if Women Evolved to be Owned?
Our culture assumes that freedom is generally good, and that people should be free to pursue their own desires, unless that pursuit conflicts with the freedom of others. This view is so pervasive that most people would struggle to understand a critique of it. However, it is based on dubious assumptions.
One of those assumptions is that people know what is good for them. This assumption is linked to hedonism. If pleasure and pain are the ultimate good and bad, then you have direct awareness of what is good and bad for you. You could be mistaken about the consequences of your actions, but not about what is intrinsically good or bad.
Hedonism is taken for granted by our culture, even though the word “hedonism” is somewhat pejorative. When people use “hedonism” pejoratively, they often mean the short-sighted pursuit of pleasure with little regard for long-term consequences or effects on other people. They still assume that pleasure and pain are the ultimate source of value.
But we can apply other norms to human action. We don’t need to judge action by the happiness or suffering that it produces. Instead, we can view action as a means to a biological end: reproduction. Viewed in this way, we can judge human actions as adaptive or maladaptive. We can also judge human desires as adaptive or maladaptive.
This view is important, even if you reject it as subjectively normative. Biology is real. Evolution will determine the future of humanity, regardless of our ideologies or technologies. We can critique an ideology or technology as maladaptive. We can critique a society or civilization as a biological dead end, if it does not reproduce its human capital. Biologically, it doesn’t matter whether people are happy or unhappy. It matters whether they reproduce.
Having said that, I will now apply the biological view to a certain aspect of human nature in the modern world: the desires and behavior of women. I will consider the possibility that women evolved to be owned/dominated by men, and cannot function in the modern environment of sexual freedom.
Men and women are different. This is a heretical belief nowadays, but it is an obvious truth. If we are honest, we can understand sexual dimorphism. Males and females have different reproductive strategies. Males produce small, motile gametes. Females produce large, sessile gametes. All other sex differences are due to this initial dimorphism, which probably emerged by symmetry breaking more than a billion years ago. It explains why women gestate children and men don’t. It explains why women are the primary caregivers of children. It explains why men have a stronger desire for sex (because they have a lower investment in the sex act). Etc.
Humans evolved the pair bond, which is rare among mammals. The pair bond is a long-term sexual relationship between a male and a female, in which they cooperate to raise their offspring. The pair bond makes paternity more certain, and thus it creates a biological incentive for the male to protect and support the female and her offspring, because her offspring are probably his offspring too. The pair bond is what I call “the sexual contract”. The male provides protection and support in exchange for the exclusive reproductive services of the female.
Of course, this sounds very unromantic, but romance is based on this exchange. Our emotions evolved to create the pair bond, and ultimately to make us reproduce. Lust and love are evolved mechanisms. They did not evolve to make us happy, or to inspire songs and poetry. They evolved to make us reproduce.
The pair bond involves a sexual division of labor. In most mammal species, males just compete for females. They don’t help females and offspring to survive. Human males protect and support their mates and children, within the pair bond. Men evolved to play the role of fathers. Women evolved to play the role of mothers.
Men are physically stronger than women, and can easily dominate them physically. Men can get reproductive services from women by coercion (rape), or by cooperation (the pair bond). Because men are stronger than women, men control access to women. Men could seize women from other men by force (typically in war). Men could also arrange a pair bond by agreement with other men. In such cases, the woman might also agree to the relationship, but typically her male relatives would have to agree as well.
Traditional marriage was an explicit version of the pair bond. It had responsibilities for both sides. In a sense, the husband and wife owned each other. But this ownership was not symmetrical, because men and women are different. A woman needed the protection of a man to survive, so she was the de facto property of some protector: initially her father, and later her husband. The marriage ceremony reflects this power dynamic: the father hands over his daughter to her new husband.
Today, the state has replaced both the father and the husband as the “owner” of women. The state is the default protector and provider. The state gives women sexual freedom. Marriage has become a meaningless ceremony, devoid of biological or social significance. Unlike the father or the husband, the state has no biological interest in a woman. So, we should not expect the state to encourage her to reproduce. She is just another individual, pursuing her own desires.
Sexual freedom is a recent development, due to the industrial and sexual revolutions. Until modern times, women were owned by their fathers or husbands, not by the state.
Women were not powerless in this ancestral condition — far from it. Women had sexual power. They still have this power today. Arguably, a beautiful young woman is more powerful than any man. She can “launch a thousand ships”. Men are slaves to female beauty.
Women evolved to be successful in the ancestral condition, as did men. You could say that women evolved to live inside the “cage” of male ownership. Their emotions evolved to fit that cage: to push against it in some ways, but not to exist outside it. Modern civilization has removed that cage. Female emotions are not adapted to life outside the cage. As a result, female behavior has become extremely maladaptive.
The sexual cage is not the only cage that we are adapted to. Humans evolved to live in the “cage” of society. We depend on society to survive, and we must fit into it. Our emotions are adapted to that cage.
Scarcity is another cage that we are adapted to. We are not adapted to abundance.
The problem with liberation is that we aren’t adapted to it. We have not been pulled from our natural environment and stuck in a cage, like a zoo animal. It is the opposite. We have been taken out of our natural cage and released into the “wild” of modern civilization, with all of its freedoms.
What are the consequences of liberating women from the sexual cage?
In the ancestral condition, women were forced to sexually submit to men, just to survive. In war, they might be raped, or taken as sexual slaves. In peacetime, they would need to get married, to have a protector and provider. They were forced to have sex, and thus (without birth control) they were forced to have children. They were forced to do what was biologically good for them, even if they didn’t want to.
Now, women have been set free to do what they want, even if it isn’t biologically good for them.
In the ancestral condition, men and women were brought together by complementary desires. Sexual desire motivated men to seek women. Fear and necessity motivated women to accept men. A woman needed a husband. Her father could not protect and support her forever. The desire to survive was sufficient to motivate a young woman to enter a relationship. Female sexual desire was secondary. Of course, women have preferences in men, just as men have preferences in women. But the sexual desire of men is stronger, because female sexual desire was not necessary to bring men and women together.
In most cases, men play the active role in seeking a mate, while women play a passive role. Women wait for men to come to them. In some cases, the parents of a young woman would seek a husband for her, reversing the roles somewhat. But in most cases, men would come to her, not vice versa. She was not a “free woman”, roaming around, seeking a mate. She was sessile, like her gametes, relying on her appearance to attract potential mates. Rather than seeking a mate, she would attract as much attention as possible, so that men would compete for her. Eventually, a man would “win” her.
Now that women have been liberated from the ancestral cage, they still act in much the same way. They do not seek mates. They do not have a strong desire for sex. They are passive, rather than active. They display their wares, and wait for men to come to them.
In modern civilization, women have much greater sexual agency than men. Most women could easily find a good mate and form a pair bond. But women lack the motivation to pursue men. Instead, they wait passively for a mate. They also reject most men who try to connect with them. Women spend years waiting passively for “Mr. Right”. What they are actually waiting for, although they don’t know it, is to be forced into a sexual relationship. They are waiting to be owned.
The modern mating game is dysfunctional, because women instinctively expect men to “take” them, but men lack the agency to do that. Women are not willing to meet men halfway, as equals. Instead, women maximize their attractiveness and wait, while rejecting most overtures from men. They wait for a man who has the power to take them, but society has eliminated that power.
Women waste their fertile years waiting for men. They feel no urgency about getting a mate. A single man feels a desperate longing for a woman. A single woman does not have the same feeling. Again, female sexual desire was not the driving force that brought men and women together in the past. A woman needed a man, and she often had little choice in the matter. Today, a woman doesn’t need a man as a protector or provider. She is protected by the state. She can sell her labor in the market to support herself, or she can fall back on state welfare. Under those conditions, she does not have a strong desire for a mate.
Given the agency to freely choose a mate, most women don’t use it.
This is not the only problem with human sexuality in the modern world. There are others, including a reluctance by men to commit to relationships. Also, both sexes often choose to have few or no children, given the new agency of birth control. However, the desires of women (or lack thereof) are the biggest obstacle to sexual relationships.
Human nature is not adapted to sexual freedom. Sexual liberation derailed human sexuality.
It is a heresy to say this. Most people would recoil in horror (partially fake) at this violation of taboos and religious assumptions. But it is true.
We can understand the pathology of certain desires in the modern environment. For example, given abundant food, people will overeat. We recognize the need to regulate food consumption consciously, using explicit norms instead of instincts. We recognize the problem. But we don’t recognize other, similar problems that are caused by taking the human animal out of its ancestral condition.
One reason is that we lack an explicit theory of human purpose. We have only implicit, unexamined hedonism. We assume that liberation is generally beneficial, because it allows us to pursue our desires. But what if our desires are wrong?
I am not blaming women, or anyone else, for the current problems with human sexuality. I am not a reactionary. I don’t want to RETVRN to a premodern way of life. I want modern civilization to succeed. I am not a traditionalist. We can’t solve the problems of modern civilization by restoring traditional religion and morality. Modern problems require new solutions.
To solve the problems of modern civilization, we need to expand our rationality to match the expansion of our agency.
I struggle with this because while a lot of what you say here makes sense and I tend to agree with most of what you write, I think I finally have found a position I disagree with or at least it does not seem clearly true.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be implying which may not be your intention that women have very little to no sexual desire for men because this wasn’t necessary and that furthermore they would be reasonably content or even happy to just be forced into a relationship with a man or arranged into one. I’m not sure this is the case.
Anecdotally speaking which may not be relevant, multiple women took the initiative with forming a relationship with me while I was in secondary school and I was a very shy individual that was not considered popular. One girl in particular chose to ask me out on fireworks night to make it more of a big deal and another girl followed me around a party all night (I don’t say this to brag, just that this is my experience and it does affect my view).
I would argue that women are just more sexually selective and this can be a harsh process for the average man. I’ve seen a video that showed an Indian woman in an arranged marriage begin to cry upon first seeing her husband because she obviously thought he was ugly. I think the position that women don’t care about looks is somewhat foolish position that helps average and unattractive men deal with their unfair circumstances. Well it doesn’t matter that women don’t find me attractive because they don’t care as much about looks as men do anyway. Well yes men are inherently more attracted to a woman based on their looks but women actually are more selective then men are based on looks, depending on what you find more important sexual desire or sexual selection it could be stated that women actually care more about a man’s appearance because they are more selective.
You could further make the argument that forced sexual relations actually lead to lower attractiveness among males as opposed to females because women aren’t allowed to select for it. This means that societies that allow for female sexual selection have a greater increase in male beauty and height and in societies where they aren’t allowed to be selected for factors like human height in particular don’t increase (I don’t believe the short stature can be explained by malnutrition alone), even penis size which is relatively the largest for humans among the primates I believe is attributed to female sexual selection. So to conclude though I wouldn’t completely disagree with the point that women are more passive and want to be pursued. I would disagree with the idea that women have no sexual drive to choose their own mate they just struggle to get the men they prefer to commit to them beyond sex because those men are in demand and of course this a exacerbated in the age of the internet where you can see larger pool of individuals to select from then you would in the past.
I think there's a difference between sexual drive and sexual preferences. If we take the premise of the post, women want to be owned by capable men worthy of owning them.
DeleteAn analogy that is easy to understand for men is perhaps this: men want to be lead, but they want to be lead by a capable man worthy of being a leader.
I think your point about lack of female sexual selection leading to increase in male ugliness is probably correct.
Thanks for the comment.
DeleteThere is a good reason why anecdotes are not generally accepted as evidence. They have some evidentiary value, but not much.
I have been "pursued" by girls too. In my early 20s, I had "groupies": girls who would hang out where I worked and outside my apartment, so that they could talk/flirt with me. I have rarely been explicitly asked out, however. When a girl pursues a guy, she lets him know that she is interested, but she usually waits for him to make an actual move, and she might still reject him. That's how it usually works, but there are always exceptions.
So, of course, women find some men attractive, and do pursue men to some extent, in their own way. However, there is still a huge disproportionality between male and female desire. Keep in mind that men are socially and culturally conditioned *not* to pursue women aggressively, while there is no such conditioning for women. If a bunch of guys waited outside a woman's apartment to flirt with her, she'd call the police and they would get arrested. Despite that, I'm sure that for every case of a woman following a guy around at a party, there are at least 10 (maybe even 100) cases of the reverse.
Another example from my past. One time, I was in a nightclub, and a girl sat on my lap and started kissing me. If a guy walks up to a girl and starts kissing her, he will likely be slapped by the girl, beaten up by other men, thrown out of the bar, and maybe arrested. Why the double standard? Because women rarely want to do such things, and men are flattered when they do.
Studies from dating apps show the disproportionality pretty clearly. For example, one recent study found that, out of 100 bachelor profiles, only one was liked by more than 80% of the female participants, while 38 were disliked. Women dislike men much more than they like them. It is not just that women are less attracted to men. They are also more repulsed by men. Women were not selected to like men, but to be very picky, and to fear/dislike men more. They still like some men, but the bar is high.
In the ancestral condition, as I explained, male sexual desire brought men and women together. Women did not need the same level of sexual desire, or any level of sexual desire, to reproduce. Other desires, plus circumstances, caused them to be in relationships.
I did not say that women don't care about looks. Attraction for both sexes depends on appearance. I said that men have more attraction for women than vice versa. Women also care more about a man's status, wealth, power, etc.
There is plenty of copium in the MGTOW and incel spheres, but that's irrelevant. I'm not in those spheres, and this is not copium.
You say that women are more "sexually selective". Men and women are both selective. If a man is given a choice of 100 women, he will have preferences. The same is true if a women is given a choice of 100 men. Both will be selective. The difference is in the desire for the opposite sex. A man of average attractiveness will desire a woman of average attractiveness much more than vice versa. Women are not as strongly motivated by sexual desire.
DeleteThe concept of sexual selection in biology is bogus. Beauty is subjective. It is not that people are attracted to what is objectively beautiful. Beauty is whatever people are attracted to. Both sexes are attracted to signs of reproductive utility. For men, that is youth, breasts, and an hourglass figure. Those features indicate reproductive utility. A young woman has more of her reproductive lifespan ahead of her. Body shape indicates sexual maturity. Fat deposits are energy, and thus the capacity to gestate a child. An hourglass figure indicates that a woman has not had many children already. Women are attracted to signs of social and physical power in men, such as social status and height. Women prefer men who are older than them. Both sexes have preferences for symmetric faces with normal shapes. Men prefer more neotenous faces. All of these preferences have biological explanations.
The larger size of the human penis is probably not due to female preference for big dicks. Semen competition is a more likely explanation (see Sex and Violence on this blog) -- a larger penis pumps out competitor semen. It could also just be due to the vagina being larger after children -- human newborns have much bigger heads than chimp newborns. Some primates (e.g. baboons) have proportionately larger penises than humans. Chimps have much bigger testicles, but small penises. It could also be partly due to upright stature making a long penis less of a liability (less likely to get caught in branches, scratched on the ground, etc. So...I don't know the exact reason for it, but it's probably not because of female preferences.
I'll explain why the concept of sexual selection is bogus. Suppose that female preferences were important in mating, in the ancestral condition: that women chose partners based on attractiveness. Also suppose that, for some reason, women found large penises more attractive, even though a large penis has no actual reproductive utility to the woman. That preference would select for larger penises in men -- but it would also select against itself, since women with the preference would be competing for men with big dicks, instead of men with physical strength, health, social status, etc. A woman who doesn't care about dick size would have an advantage over other women, and have more surviving offspring. It is maladaptive to be attracted to a signal that is not correlated with reproductive utility, so it would be selected against.
Sexual signals, such as bird songs or the peacock's tail, are ways of saying "Here I am: a male of your species". Females produce larger gametes (eggs). Males compensate in other ways, by paying other costs. In birds, males establish territories and then signal their presence, typically with a song, but sometimes with other displays, such as flashy plumage. Females select males based on territory. The signal just alerts the female to the presence of a male. The male takes an additional risk of predation by making himself so obvious. However, the signal might also be designed to confuse predators to some extent, or even to scare them off (e.g. the eyes on the peacock's tail). Few mammal species have this type of behavior. Instead, males invest energy in finding females and fighting over them. That's why most mammals (including humans) look and sound rather dull compared to male birds.
These explanations do make sense to me and I am impressed and amused you preempted the male birds objective beauty point that I’m guessing you’ve heard before, and to be honest I agree that beauty is subjective, however I think modern artist types seem to think that means it has no legitimate basis on anything. For example I think light coloured eyes are more appealing than brown and dark eyes and I think this is the norm for people. They are brighter and more colourful and therefore more appealing which to me is the closest one could call something objectively beautiful, people might point out that other features are more important in the face like overall symmetry and I would agree but Im curious as to your thinking on this.
DeleteI do also have some further questions if you don’t mind on the main point. You admit that women do care about appearance but you are saying women have little to no sexual desire for men due to it being unnecessary to evolve it in a pre-modern environment, correct me if I’m wrong. So what makes women care about a man’s appearance if it isn’t sexual desire? What drove the groupies that stood outside your apartment or the ones that go mad for the pretty boys from boy bands? What does this say about sexual orientation for women if their sexual desire is low to non-existent, are they essentially a-sexual to some degree? Finally what would you say to a man that wants to attract women? Sorry if that’s a lot of questions but I find what you have to say very compelling.
The experience of beauty is a state of mind, which is receptive to the information of the senses. Certain situations and stimuli cause that mental state, such as viewing a landscape from a high vantage point. Essentially, you "drink" the information, and that fully occupies your mind.
DeleteBeauty is subjective, in the sense that it is brain-dependent. It is also context-dependent. However, because human brains are similar, we find similar things beautiful.
We find landscapes beautiful probably because it was adaptive to stop and absorb the information about a landscape from time to time. It can be useful to acquire knowledge that you aren't looking for. So, we have a mechanism that allows us to absorb information for its own sake.
I think art, especially music, is often a kind of deception: it tricks the brain into entering that state, despite containing no useful information.
Signals (such as a stop sign or the peacock's tail) are selected to be contrastive. E.g. stop signs are red because red is an uncommon color in the environment. If we lived on Mars, stop signs would be green or blue. This is somewhat objective, but it depends on the senses and the brain. Signals can also imitate things that we naturally orient to, such as eyes and voices.
"You admit that women do care about appearance but you are saying women have little to no sexual desire for men due to it being unnecessary to evolve it in a pre-modern environment, correct me if I’m wrong."
DeleteYou're wrong. I don't "admit" that women care about appearance, and I didn't say that women have little to no sexual desire for men. What I said in the article is:
"Of course, women have preferences in men, just as men have preferences in women. But the sexual desire of men is stronger, because female sexual desire was not necessary to bring men and women together."
Women have sexual desire for men, but it is weaker, and more selective. Sexual preferences cause both attraction and repulsion.
So, no, I never said that women have no sexual desire, that they are asexual, have no sexual preferences, or any other strawman. What I said is that women have less sexual desire than men, are more selective, and did not evolve to pursue/seek men, but to play a passive role: trying to attract men. I also explained that women needed men for other reasons, and had less agency in choosing mates.
TBH, I suggest rereading the essay.
Groupies are mostly teenage girls, who have just gone through puberty, so they are at the natural age for forming a pair-bond and having children, but they are naturally interested in men several years older, not boys their own age. Our society places their natural mates off-limits. This creates a kind of mate scarcity for teenage girls. So, if you put a decent-looking young man (college-age) around teenage girls, they will find him attractive. He's the best-quality guy around (compared to the teenage boys and middle-aged, balding teachers). That's a loud signal: very contrastive. So, girls will flock to that signal. There is also a feedback loop. Girls are interested in a guy if other girls are interested in the guy.
DeleteOf course, this is not particularly adaptive behavior. Groupies are wasting their time. Again, women are not adapted to pursue men, so when they do pursue men, they do it in a pathological and useless way (flocking around one high-status man). Men pursue women in a more pragmatic way, because we evolved to pursue women.
Now, however, we have technology, such as OnlyFans, that tricks men into pursuing women in pathological ways. It creates the illusion that the girl is alone, accessible and available, when she is none of those things. The human brain can be hacked in various ways. The emotions are ad hoc, and easily tricked. See "Alienation and Art" on this blog.
I wouldn't try to passively attract women. Instead, pursue them. Go to a place where you are higher status (older, more wealthy, taller), and where there are available women. The most important thing is simply to have access to women. Talk to them. Don't be super aggressive, but don't be completely passive. Show some interest, read their signals, back off if they signal rejection, and then approach if they signal interest. It's like "red light, green light". It's irrational, but that's how people are. Good luck.
My mistake on misreading and misunderstanding your essay but thank you for clarifying and responding to all my questions I appreciate the help.
DeleteWould you advocate for some sort of patriarchy to solve these kinds of problems between men and women?
ReplyDeleteNo, and "the patriarchy" was nature. The breakdown of human sexuality is one of many problems created by modern civilization removing nature's boot from humanity's neck. To solve these problems, we need to expand rationality. The first step is understanding nature, human nature and the modern condition. Then we need to act more rationally at two levels: individual and social. Individuals need to be more critical of their emotions and intuitions, and use explicit norms to guide their decisions. Socially, we need to redesign modern civilization so it is sustainable. Part of that is eugenic reproduction control, which I've explained in other essays. That would help to restore the balance between the sexes. However, I think the likely outcome is that modern civilization will collapse before we solve the problems created by it, and we'll go back to the harsh pre-modern condition.
DeleteI understand. What I am trying to get at with my question is this:
DeleteWould installing a patriarchal system that gives more power and authority to men, as compared to women, not make men more desirable to women and enable men to offer women something that they can't easily get without a man? Wouldn't a patriarchal system be more functional, assuming it could be implemented and sustained?
We can't just install a patriarchal system without first expanding rationality (awareness and control) at the social level. It would have to be designed and created rationally.
DeleteAgain, the patriarchy was nature. We didn't uninstall it. Modern civilization created prosperity, birth control, urbanization, service/office jobs, etc. The "patriarchy" then disappeared, because it was not something we put into place. It was nature. Norms can change very easily when the conditions of life change.
Traditionalists make this mistake: believing that we could fix modernity by restoring the previous norms (which have already melted away), as if we just made a historical mistake, and can just RETVRN. They don't understand that the previous system was relatively stable because of hardship, high child mortality, no birth control, etc. We can't just reinstall traditional norms and expect to return to pre-modern behavior, while keeping all the benefits of modernity.
If we want modern civilization to work, and not be a historical anomaly, we need to design it. Conservatives don't want to do that. They want their dead religion back.
What I propose (reproduction licenses) would require the consent of both parties, and their combined income. So, it would give men more power in the relationship game, but not in the casual sex game.
I agree completely. I don't think going back to tradition can solve the modern problems we now have. Traditions like "the patriarchy" were there to solve the problems of old, and can't solve the problems of modernity.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I do think "the patriarchy" helps in creating a more functional marriage market, as evidenced by the traditional muslims and christians in the West still having more functional and lasting marriages. Your whole blog post seems to insinuate that women have evolved to be owned or controlled by men, and the implication of this is that a society which treats women and men exactly the same is less functional than a society which makes women dependent on men. This doesn't solve the bigger problems, such as dysgenics and population control, but clearly those who still live by those old traditions are more functional in the modern society, from an evolutionary perspective, then most non-traditionalists who embrace "gender equality".
The blog post explains that women evolved to be owned, and it explains what that means: that women needed men to survive. It was never society that made women dependent on men. It was nature.
DeleteCertain niche belief systems can be adaptive for some individuals in the modern world, but only if you're born into them, and they are parasitic on the modern world. The Amish, for example, are protected by their community and beliefs from the harmful aspects of modern civilization, such as birth control. That benefits them biologically, but it doesn't help to make modern civilization sustainable. If everyone became Amish tomorrow, the population explosion would collapse modern civilization in a couple of generations. We would also instantly lose all the technology that allows us to defend our countries from foreign powers, grow enough food to feed ourselves, etc. Things would come crashing down almost immediately.
The Amish way of life is not functional for the entire civilization, but it is functional as a niche way of life that is parasitic on modern civilization. It is functional for individuals, and for small communities within modern civilization, but not for the civilization as a whole.
Also, such traditions can't help most people, because you need to be born into the community to actually absorb the traditions. Real traditions pass down from parents to children. They don't have the properties that allow them to propagate by rational persuasion, or become internet memes, etc.
If you don't see the problems with modernity, then you won't see any reason to be Amish. If you do see the problems with modernity, then you can't become Amish, even if you recognize that their way of life works, because you are operating in a completely different frame. E.g. you're an atheist, you understand evolution, etc.
So, again, all that stuff is useless.
The so-called "traditionalists" are internet meme-pushers, and traditionalism is (ironically) a fashion that spreads on the internet.
That is, roughly speaking, what I believe too. Though I would add that people like us who "operate in a different frame" can sometimes emulate different beliefs and behaviours, and use this to our advantage. Operating at a higher level of rationality enables us to interact with others in a way that is more beneficial to us as individuals. It gives us power over others by expanding our individual agency. If only we could do that for society as a whole...
ReplyDeleteYeah, we can operate in artificial frames, while recognizing their artificiality. But most people can't think abstractly. They can't be philosophical. They can't understand the modern human predicament.
DeleteSociety needs intellectual leadership: people who can stare into the abyss and understand the human predicament, and then make decisions for humanity. Unfortunately, public intellectuals are charlatans, chosen based on popularity. There's no easy answer. It's not easy to expand rationality, given that most people can't participate in that expanded rationality.
Most people need a religion of some kind: a pre-packaged set of beliefs, values and behaviors. Unfortunately, people now get that cultural package "off-the-shelf", from mass media or social media. It's another problem of choice: people didn't evolve to choose their culture. They evolved to inherit it, and in a sense, to be "owned" by it.
However, just because most people need a religion, it doesn't follow that we can resurrect a dead religion, such as Christianity, or that we can save our civilization with "white sharia". We need a new religion that is not a parasitic meme, and that has a rational justification and priesthood, even if most people accept it on faith.
I talked about that in "Toward Rational Humanism", and in other places.
But the prisoner's dilemma is gender agnostic. The wife owns the husband just as much as the husband owns the wife.
ReplyDeleteNone of the arguments made in this blog post or in the comments rely on the prisoner's dilemma. So, why do you think it is relevant here?
DeleteP.S. The person mentioning the prisoner's dilemma is someone else. A bit confusing since both of us are "Anonymous".
Yes, the prisoner's dilemma between the sexes is symmetric. The sexual contract is cooperation, and both sides can defect. But the sexes are not symmetric, so the sexual contract is not symmetric. They contribute different types of labor, and the risks are different. To say that men "owned" women is a (somewhat provocative) way of describing the asymmetry. Women needed men to survive. Men needed (and still need) women to reproduce. Being physically stronger, men were in direct control of most things, but women have emotional control over men.
DeleteIn an ancestral society, a father "owned" his daughter, and he could veto a relationship. But the daughter also "owned" the father emotionally, because he cared about her. Today, as a free individual, she can make her own choices. Her father's input is not required, and she does not need a husband. She does not need to be "owned". She acts in a totally different context. Because her nature is not adapted to this newly acquired freedom, her choices are maladaptive. That's the point of the essay. I think you are focusing on a choice of words, rather than the point.
Thanks for responding. I agree with everything that you said, but I was just playing Devil's Advocate. One of my friends made this remark, but he didn't leave a comment, so I decided to post it for him.
DeleteThe Hindu practice of Sati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)) was a historical practice where widows would be burned to death if their husbands recently died. When the wife's husband (her owner) died, she had to die as well. It's another example of a cultural custom demonstrating that women were owned by men.
ReplyDeleteThis is basically why I reject evolutionary psychology.
ReplyDeleteYou reject an explanatory theory because you don't like the implications of it? That's the appeal to consequences fallacy.
DeleteYou will never understand reality if you reject theories and explanations that you find distasteful or troubling. That's just willful ignorance.
You constantly repeat the same line about how women NEED men in order to survive. But that’s manipulative rhetoric that depicts men as superior, not a fact. Women can hunt, gather, adhere to basic survival skills, and avoid all of the dangers of nature for a long time. Modernity didn’t give us the ability to survive without a poor little chaperone. We’ve always had it. Men have always been able to live on their own without us as well.
ReplyDeleteWe aren’t as strong as men and aren’t as quick to chimp out, but rats are far weaker and stupider than human women. Yet if I were to release a rat, even an infertile one, into the wild outside my back door, it could probably survive for a pretty long time.
Women and men ‘need’ eachother if they are to reproduce. That is how sexual dimorphism works. But women don’t need men to survive in a literal sense. You claim that all you really want is for the government to give certificates to determine who can and cannot reproduce. Isn’t that a universal solution? Why the need for this bizarre hitpiece saying that women want to be property? What are the women who don’t get reproductive licenses supposed to do when they aren’t able to fulfil their sole duty reproducing “machines”.
I think you’ve mentioned in the past that you prefer auditory debates to simple comments. Would you be open to a debate on matters of sex and sexual orientation? This comment isn’t a binding contract obviously. I’m just curious as to how one would actually organize something like that.
You’re still missing the point. It’s probably true that many women could survive in the wilderness without a man to protect them, especially if they are smart and they have the right skills. Nevertheless, a woman’s chances of survival are still going to be greater, if they have a man to protect them. And as you mentioned, women still need men in order to reproduce. It’s not manipulative rhetoric. You’re just unreasonably biased to view it that way. Women need men if they want to have stronger chances at surviving and reproducing.
Delete“Yes what you said is true, but having a man nearby can better your chances so you’re wrong and simply biased in some way I can’t even describe.”
DeleteAny human companion can increase the likelihood of survival in the wild. Having another hand around to do work, and another pair of eyes to see, has an irreplaceable benefit. Women help men and increase their chances of survival as well. Do you constantly remind yourself of women’s usefulness in everyday life, and how you wouldn’t exist without all that they have done? Or should only women be constantly reminded of how much men do for us, by online men who provide us with nothing but pseudo-scientific theories on why women really want to be raped?
This guy isn’t even responding to a specific claim made by someone else. He’s not just pointing out that men and women need eachother to procreate. He literally says “women want to be forced into a sexual relationship”. Being forced to participate in sexual acts is rape. Why shouldn’t I take him on his word? Is this entire blog a joke? Is it ‘rational’ to lie about things and make ridiculous, oversimplified, dogmatic statements that equate hitting on someone to literal force? Is it ‘good faith arguing’ to say that people should’ve seen some hidden meaning to what you were saying, and not the explicit meaning? If he doesn’t mean what he is saying, he should not write it, post it online, and continue to platform it as a serious thought leader.
People like you and the OP have the audacity to cry about how you aren’t really manipulating anyone. All it does is reveal how eternally disingenuous you are. You’ll sweep for literal rape but the one thing you must assure us of is that you’d never manipulate words in order to influence other people. As long as these types of nasty spergs call themselves “rational humanist realist pragmatists” then they can make purposefully wrong claims that aren’t even necessary for their survival. People will still sweep for them and say they’re “missing the point”. Well what is the mythical point in saying that women want to be forced into having sex, other than what is clearly stated? “Men are demoralized and told they shouldn’t initiate romantic conversations”? You could just say that if you weren’t such a pathetic edgy freak.
If you want to debate me, then either join my discord and let me know, or we can use skype. I prefer skype because it has built-in recording ability.
DeleteYes, women need men to survive. People have never been able to live "on their own" as individuals. Humans have always lived in groups. Women have also always depended on men to protect and support them. And yes, men are superior to women in many ways: they are much stronger and faster. Women are superior to men in other ways: they have a uterus and breasts. These are obvious facts about reality. If you deny them, you're desperately trying to defend a moral/religious belief from falsification.
You are the one lying. You put something in quotes that I did not say: "women want to be forced into a sexual relationship". Then you did your little self-righteous dance. You're so desperate for something to rage about, so you can feel morally superior.
So, yeah, let's debate in voice. Then you can really put me in my place.
“In many ways” means “not entirely”. You yourself give counter examples. I know that men have greater physical strength than women. I stated that very plainly. Control F to find the quote “We aren’t as strong as men”. Personally, I don’t feel like having boobs and a uterus is something that makes me ‘superior’, although I have come to accept these things as healthy parts of my body. Those two traits are universal to all female mammals though, so ‘superiority’ is not something I feel the need to prove in regards to this. Coincidentally, these traits are only really useful for reproduction. Testes are necessary for reproduction, yet you do not choose to focus your own ‘superior’ traits solely on genitalia. Why not use direct equivalents whenever possible?
DeleteI am also aware that humans tend to live in groups and this is ‘good for us’. However, if only one person were left alive, then that person would not have a group around them. They would not automatically cease to exist just because everyone else was no longer there, though.
This talk of ‘falsification’ is obvious projection. Your essay is not a scientific paper with properly cited sources. I stated that you were trying to make men seem superior. And your response is “yes, but only in many ways”. Exactly how many ways are there? That undefined number doesn’t seem to be easily falsified to me.
Let me give you the direct quote since my barely abridged quote isn’t good enough for you: “What they are actually waiting for, although they don’t know it, is to be forced into a sexual relationship.” You can go ahead and use the control F function to find this quote in your article! Is there some sort of system we can employ in a verbal debate to ensure you aren’t a such a comically bad faith, gaslighting sack of shit? Or will I have to reread the direct quote “What they are actually waiting for, although they don’t know it, is to be forced into a sexual relationship” to you in person? If there’s some way to ensure you won’t be gaslighting me the entire time, I’d love to discuss the time of the debate.
Men are much taller, stronger, and faster than women. The average woman is always going to lose a fight against the average man. Women need men in order to survive far more than men need women to survive, but they both need each other in order to reproduce. If you disagree with that, then you're lying.
DeleteNo, I don't want to rape women. I doubt that I'm mentally capable of raping a woman either. Unlike most men, I am sexually submissive. Trying to rape a woman wouldn't turn me on, and trying to get turned on by it would frankly feel boring. But I don't have to want to rape women to recognize that rape is a natural phenomenon.
Forced marriages are also a natural phenomenon, and they're more adaptive than the current dynamics of the modern world. You may view them to be "rape", but arranged marriages are/were viewed as normal and socially acceptable in other countries and earlier centuries. Getting married often implied consent to sexual activity with one's spouse, even if the marriages were for-life.
Billions of people wouldn't exist today if their ancestors didn't have arranged marriages, including myself. My Chinese great grandparents were 26 and 16 years old when they got married, and my great grandmother was 17 when she gave birth to her first daughter. You may view that as "rape" if she didn't like her husband. But again, their relationship was perfectly normal, and that's how all of their contemporaries viewed it.
You dislike this essay simply because you grew up in a culture where most people have negative views of male dominance, female submissiveness, and arranged marriages. The crux of this disagreement is that you're viewing humanity through a prescriptive moralist lens, whereas we are viewing it through a descriptive biological perspective. If you set aside all of your personal biases and desires and instead focus on the facts, you may realize that the conclusion of this essay is essentially correct: Women evolved to be owned by men.
Except that what you’re repeating is not a fact, you beta mongoloid. “Women evolved to be owned by men” is a self defeating, dogmatic statement. ‘Evolution’ implies an increase in complexity, positive value, something along those lines. Yet adult human females evolved into simple ‘property’ because you say so.
DeleteThere is no scientific study proving that women are owned by men and that is part of our evolutionary destiny. There is no argument to be made that I cannot also direct towards men, even if they are quicker to anger. There is no way to prove to you that women aren’t property (so far) because even the slightest behavioral difference between these populations becomes a word salad essay on our ‘submissiveness’. And if women do anything ‘submissive’ that confirms we are objects. Literally. Scientifically. No dispute.
As I’ve stated several times to stuffed ears, I AGREE THAT MEN ARE STRONGER THAN WOMEN. I believe that we would lose in a one on one fight in the overwhelming majority of cases. I’m sorry your ancestral Chinese NPC programming can’t comprehend this, but I’ve made it obvious that I see men and women as different from the word go. “You’re lying to yourself if you don’t believe this.” Well I do believe this and I’ve openly stated this in every comment so far. You’re lying about my statements because I think your constant need to call us your property is unnecessary and offputting regardless of those facts. I am disgusted the way I am when I see someone torture a dog for no reason. Women do not need rape to get pregnant.
‘Property’ is not a biological concept. You ‘biologically’ own nothing but yourself. I don’t care if spouses both see eachother as property. But why the exclusive targeting of women? Men are expected to serve their wife too, aren’t they?
Your personal anecdotes about your Chinese great grandparents are dumb. I don’t need to disprove the feelings of your dead ancestors. If an African told me that “what you call rape is perfectly normal here”, I’d say “stay away and stop speaking my language then”. I have no real context on your ancestors, other than to trust what you say.
I don’t think arranged marriages are inherently a guy raping a girl and I never implied that. I think people ‘consent’ to that social pressure to some extent by not running away, arguing their case, or refusing to go along with it. But if this was a reasonable system that I can’t criticize, then why aren’t you living by their example? I guess only you can have personal choice and open fetishizes because you’re a Chinese Male. That’s not very Confucian of you though.
If you’re such a self described submissive guy then I think it would be very good for you to be forced into a relationship. Why project your fetish onto me and all of my female kin? Women don’t know what we want, but you know that you want a dommy mommy and you can pursue that because you say so.
You can plug your ears and call me an “irrational moralist” all you want. To me, It’s about as real a category as “nazi adjacent” is. No one here genuinely believes in arranged marriages. You’re inconsistent contrarians and there’s thousands of men just like you online. So you can stop sweeping for your Thought Messiah and go back to your sweatshop in Hong Kong. You’re property of Confucius, boy. That is a literal fact.
Lol, I think Dennis was the last time I've ever seen such emotionally triggered comments on this blog before. Anyway, I look forward to hearing the voice debate that you said that you had some interest in. Good luck.
DeleteOf course I know what I actually said, and your "abridged" version is simply a lie. You constructed it so it would fit the strawman that you want to rage against.
DeleteIn voice, we can discuss the meaning of that sentence in the context of the essay, or the meaning of any other sentence.
Obviously, there's no guarantee that I won't "gaslight" you by pointing out when you misquote me, or are otherwise lying, or when you are wrong, etc. The main point of a voice debate it to prevent talking past each other, and specifically to prevent you from ignoring what I have actually said, misinterpreting it, lying about it, etc. It's also to force you to have some skin in the game, because it's very easy to make a bunch of stupid comments online and then run away from them. In a voice debate, you'll at least have to ragequit in a way that is obvious, when you lose the debate.
I gave you two options: skype or discord. Pick one, that's the first step. Also suggest a time. I'm am usually available between 11 AM and 3 PM Pacific time, on weekdays. I can be available at other times.
Why don’t you explain to me why my version of your quote is wrong first? Everyone can say “that’s a lie, that’s a lie” to everything the person they’re arguing against says. That’s not a firm rebuttal though. It doesn’t mean you’re right. It means you can say the same words over and over again. I’m betting you’d be willing to do this for several hours in your Discord server. If I debate you in voice there also won’t be any textual evidence to quote directly. That’s what makes it an easier form of media to gaslight someone with.
DeleteYour trustworthiness to me is very low for many reasons. I don’t have Skype and if I join a call on your personal Discord then you could ban me at any time. I’ve been provoking you a lot out of curiosity, but I still have no idea as to what would happen after I join and such. I have next to nothing to gain on this compared to you if there is a call. I’d have to record the thing myself to keep record on it and I don’t have a YouTube Channel as big as yours to post it on.
You can think I’m a f*g for showing hesitancy, but before I end up joining your personal chat room on a website I generally despise, I want you to tell me how “What they are waiting for, although they do not know it, is to be forced into a sexual relationship” and “women want to be forced into a sexual relationship” are meaningfully different. I care more about this then I do entertaining you and showing how much of a “”brave”” person I am. There’s a lot of factors to this and I can’t afford to be provoked into anything stupid. Also, I want a guarantee that I won’t be banned just because you find me annoying or whatever. I also want all of these comments to stay up and for none of them to be deleted.
I'm not going to waste my time explaining something in text that is already explained in text. If you want to understand what is being said, reread the essay with an open mind. You're trying to make an excuse to back out, and I'm not going to play that game. I'm not going to waste time negotiating a voice discussion. If you don't have the guts to talk to someone (why is that so hard?), then just leave.
DeleteIt sounds like you know how to use discord, so you know where to find me.
You just said "my version of your quote", so you implicitly admitted that he never said that women *want* to be raped. You're trying to construct strawmen, as you have been the entire time.
Delete*Waiting* to be forced into a sexual relationship is clearly not the same thing as *wanting* it. One could say "What the European powers were waiting for, although they did not know it, was for a World War to start". Nobody wanted such a bloody and gruesome World War to happen, but it happened anyway because they didn't do enough to prevent it. Likewise, if women aren't actively pursuing relationships and are denying relationship offers, then they are de facto waiting to be forced into a sexual relationship, even if they don't necessarily want it. That's typically what would happen in pre-modern times.
You won't be banned from the discord server as long as you are civil and you follow the short list of rules. Comments haven't been deleted on this blog before for merely disagreeing (go see other blog posts for proof), except for when they were spam, so that's not a legitimate excuse. You can still quote things that are written in the essay and the comments even if you debate in voice. Direct quotes have been spoken in many of the past debates on the YouTube channel.
To be clear, women aren't adapted to pursuing or accepting (voluntary) relationships because they never needed to do so in their evolutionary history. Most or virtually all of a woman's female ancestors waited for the male ancestors to make the first move. It's thus reasonable to say that modern women evolved to wait for men to make the first move, or that women waited to be forced/"forced" into sexual relationships. If you still don't understand, then BG can explain it to you in voice.
DeleteAnyway, it's not inaccurate to say that social and legal systems have been historically constructed to treat women as property of their fathers and husbands. So, I don't understand what the issue is with stating that women have been treated as property throughout history.
Evolution doesn't necessarily imply an increase in biological complexity over time. There are many primitive species that still exist today. Mutations can increase the complexity of life, but selection reduces that complexity to create order and predictability.
The reason why I have to say obvious facts, e.g. "Men are much taller, stronger, and faster than women" is because you are too dense to acknowledge the implications of said facts. I stated that as evidence that women need men to survive more than men need women to survive, but you ignored that. And I never said women need to be raped to get pregnant.
Yes, men have traditionally served their wives by hunting for food, being the breadwinners, etc. As BG wrote in the essay, "Traditional marriage was an explicit version of the pair bond. It had responsibilities for both sides. In a sense, the husband and wife owned each other". Maybe you never read that paragraph.
Yes, you implied that arranged marriages involve rape. You said "Being forced to participate in sexual acts is rape." Women usually didn't and don't have the choice of rejecting sex in arranged marriages. That was normal, and it's still normal in many cultures today. I have to point these things out because you don't understand human nature.
No, I'm not opposed to arranged marriages. The reason why I've never had an arranged marriage is because they are socially unacceptable in American culture. My Chinese great grandparents were Lutheran Christians, not Confucians. Confucianism and Hong Kong are not relevant to this discussion.
“Nobody wanted [the first World War] to happen.” “The European powers [just waited for it].”
DeleteYou people are so spun up in loops and contradictions that you’re now denying the basic concept of initiative. The reason why the First World War happened is because many people wanted it to happen. Every single war happens because some people choose to start it and participate in it. They choose to do it because (at least in their mind) it is better than letting things continue the way they have been going. Do you seriously believe that Gavrilo Princip shot Franz Ferdinand because the gun accidentally fired in his hand? That he didn’t take the proper steps to prevent it by taking bullets out of the rifle that he brought within shooting range of the Archduke? Do you think that the Russians accidentally invaded Ukraine? Do you think Elliot Rodger didn’t want to shoot and kill six people and then himself? What exactly would’ve prevented the First World War? If nobody is actively taking steps towards something then there is nothing to be prevented unless that thing is caused by non-human entities. Wars are fights between humans, not against natural disasters.
“Denying relationship offers” is not “waiting to be forced into a sexual relationship”. ‘Denying’ is not synonymous with ‘not taking initiative’. If you deny a bull queer’s offer to sodomize you in prison then are you waiting for it to happen anyways? Perhaps you’re just playing REALLY hard to get with him. Way to admit that you literally do not understand what consent is.
Men being the first to flirt is not rape. Flirting is not and never will be rape. You literally have the same view of flirting as insane HR abusing feminists, you just think that this false equivalency makes rape acceptable instead of making both unacceptable.
DeleteHow fucking dumb do you have to be to use both force and “force” at the same time. Putting something in quotation marks like that means you don’t really believe in it. You can’t simultaneously believe that the force isn’t real but also that it was real and it’s perfectly fine anyways. This is worst fence-sitting I’ve seen in my entire life. You can’t even buck up and say “yes rape is necessary” directly. You just use every single postmodernist trick and double think in the book and hope everyone you talk to falls for it.
You’ve now moved the goal post from “women evolved to be owned” to “social and legal systems have been historically constructed to treat women as property of their fathers and husbands”. You’ve magically changed an evolutionary statement into a constructivist one and want me to view those as the same thing. I don’t buy it.
Those species that you refer to as “primitive” are called that because they have evolved very little over time. It is literally an antonym of evolved. I am now listening to supposedly intelligent, biological thinkers fail to grasp the textbook definition of primitive.
Something being stronger and faster than you doesn’t mean you are that thing’s property or should be forced to have sex with it. If you were trapped on an island with a buff survivalist, you would be almost entirely dependent on him. You would certainly rely on him more than he relies on you. Would you need to internalize the fact that you are his property? Were you made to be sodomized by this guy because he is stronger than you? Or would you avoid both of those things regardless of his strength?
“In a sense, the husband and wife owned eachother.” Yet the title of the article is not “husband and wives own eachother”. It is “women evolved to be owned by men.” You’re choosing to make it lopsided. You’re choosing to make it uneven. Do you not understand that people can be inconsistent to make something that’s bad for you seem much more reasonable?
“Being forced to participate in sexual acts is rape” is not something that I made up. It is the literal definition that almost everyone uses. And you are literally stating that, in your mind, most cases of arranged marriage are rape by this widely accepted definition. I gave an example as to how it might not be forced (some countries legitimately have matchmaker cultures that still allow the women to opt out) and you choose to reveal that you do not care about those. To you it is normal for women to be miserable and not love their spouse. Do you have a superior definition of rape that most people conveniently do not use?
If you’re being prevented from an arranged marriage because you are in America, then guess what you can do buddy? LEAVE!!! This is just as pathetic as when communists say that communist countries are way better than us. Or when non-whites move into white countries and say that we are evil and violent. If your arranged marriages are better then you can go to a country where they are allowed. It’s not like there’s absolutely no wealth to be found, even in Third World countries. But you don’t want to go there. And like the communists and anti-whites, you are too stupid to wonder if maybe the reason you don’t want to move to those places is because the things you see as social, legal, or demographic positives aren’t so great at creating stable living conditions after all.
DeleteLastly, I mention Confucianism because it is a strict historical code your ancestors lived under for much longer than they’ve ever been exposed to Protestantism. I’m pointing out the irony in your insisting that women are property because of biological differences when East Asians are usually typified by those same biological differences. Docility, humility, and conformism are all stereotypical traits of your people. Yet you will not internalize your status as an object because of that. Your ancestral culture mandated that you serve your parents, your ancestors, and the state. I could say that this means you are property to all of those entities if I use all of the standards you use against me. That’s why Confucianism is relevant to the conversation. You appeal to traditions when you clearly do not respect them. I don’t think your grandparents would appreciate you calling yourself ‘submissive’ over the internet.
I never even implied that your grandparents were Confucianist, just that you are descended from Confucians. Even your Protestant grandparents probably lived under some amount of Confucian influence. When a religion or belief system is introduced to a foreign people they often still syncretize it with their native beliefs and customs to a wide extent. Many Chinese Christians still follow Confucian doctrines either because of overlap or because they’re still attached to their original culture.
As for TK’s comment, you’ve refused to answer my basic question or acknowledge any of the reasons I give for not rushing to talk to you yet. You’re not going to get far if you don’t understand why online debates warrant negotiations. There are some people who have genuine concerns over privacy, software, recording, and who has the right to post what. I would absolutely want to record the entire conversation myself and have the right to post any part of it. Internet customs aren’t easy to hand wave away just because you do this all of the time. You’re just trying to provoke me while refusing to leave the conversation. I’ve realized that you’re probably doing this to have the last comment. I think you know that this makes you seem better than the person who leaves first, despite believing that it’s inferior to rage quitting in person. It’s something I’ve fallen for in the past.
DeleteIt may be hard to think of online anons as real people, but I have a family and I’d rather not have them overhear me mentioning rape constantly. I think the girls in my family would straight up tell you to off yourself if I had to tell them who you were. I‘ve actually been far too lenient when it comes to this sort of rhetoric in the past. I’m not going to open my mind and agree with you just because you beg me to. Why don’t you open your mind and understand my posts more?
I am unwilling to talk unless all of my family members are asleep. In Pacific time this would be between 11 PM to 4 AM on weekdays and closer to 12 to 6 AM on most weekends. But if you keep posting here then I’m going to keep responding here. You’ll need to be more ‘sessile’ if you want me to come to your Discord, bud.
Yes, many people wanted the World War I to happen. But as I emphasized in the adjectives, they would not have wanted it to happen if they knew that the war would be so costly as it was to both sides.
DeleteI'll give you another analogy since you still don't understand. Although you didn't know it a week ago, you were waiting to engage in a back-and-forth text discussion on this blog. It was inevitable since you apparently like to argue with people, you're triggered by the essay, and you just happened to have found it. You didn't know that it was going to happen, but you were waiting for it, and your behavior made it inevitable that it would happen to you eventually. How did you find this blog anyway?
Yes, people who repeatedly deny relationship offers are waiting to be forced into a relationship, especially if they are young, attractive, female, and they live in a culture with intense social pressures and universal marriage rates. If said woman would just accept one relationship offer or another, then she wouldn't be forced into a (different) relationship, in most cases. That's because most cultures practice(d) strict monogamy and marriage laws. Your analogy is a false equivocation fallacy because it's not within the context of marriage and traditional culture, which is the focus of this essay.
Yes, rape was necessary for some people to be reproductively successful. Everyone has ancestors who raped other ancestors, including you. You wouldn't exist without rapes.
No, my position is not fence-sitting. I was just emphasizing that said force happens within a set of social constraints. Here's another essay for you to read if you want to understand these things better: https://thewaywardaxolotl.blogspot.com/2022/07/circles-of-control-and-freedom.html
Both statements are true. Women evolved to be owned. Social and legal systems have been historically constructed to treat women as property of their fathers and husbands. We already explained why, even if you can't accept the truth.
No, "primitive" is not necessarily an antonym of "evolved". "Evolved" implies evolution. A modern jellyfish and all of its ancestors have gone through just as many years of evolution as any living human. Instead of writing with your condescending attitude, you should save it for the voice discussion.
> "Something being stronger and faster than you doesn’t mean you are that thing’s property or should be forced to have sex with it."
DeleteYou just used the word "should". That's a normative statement, not a descriptive statement. As I've written before, this debate is about reality and descriptive biology, not your personal biases and values. If you are trapped on said island with that buff survivalist, then you may have no other choice than to have sex with him, if you want to survive. Again, try reading: https://thewaywardaxolotl.blogspot.com/2022/07/circles-of-control-and-freedom.html and/or https://zerocontradictions.net/civilization/case-against-libertarianism.
So? Who cares if the title is provocative? Basically everybody does that these days. Why? Because it's great for attracting readers. It would actually be dumb for any author to *not* use attention-grabbing titles, if they want people to read what they wrote. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.
I also pointed out to you how many cultures had/have marriage customs that enable the husbands to de facto have as much sex with their wives as they want. I don't think the 16-year-old girl would've chose to marry the 26-year-old man that she never met if she had more choice in the matchmaking process. It's more likely that she would've chose somebody who's closer to her age. Or like many women, she might've just waited and waited until she was forced into a marriage one way or another. Yes, many arranged marriages are good relationships, but my point still stands that you have to consider them as enabling rape, if you want to be consistent. You're not consistent.
I never said that I support arranged marriages. Not opposing X is not the same thing as supporting X. My thoughts on marriages are pretty much described here: https://zerocontradictions.net/#dating You need to learn how to read and think more carefully.
It doesn't matter. Confucianism still has no relevance to this discussion. You assumed and implied that my ancestors were Confucian, even though I've never met or known any recorded Confucian relatives. You also keep assuming that I'm fully Chinese, when that's only a fraction of my ancestry. I don't care if my ancestors don't like my sexuality. I don't like it either from a philosophical and biological perspective. I never chose to be heterosexual submissive anymore than gay people chose to be gay, or straight people chose to be straight. My ancestors also wouldn't like how I'm atheist, and I don't care about that either.
Of course he would allow you to have a copy of the debate recording as well, just as he's done with everybody else. If you use Skype, both participants automatically receive a copy of all recordings. Nobody cares about the last comment. We only care about rationality.
Okay, anon, if you post again, it will be deleted. I don't time for your dishonest babbling. I don't care if you come to my discord. You're the one who asked about a voice discussion -- did you forget that? I gave you that option, and then you started "negotiating". Not interested. Adios.
DeleteWhy do you assume that? Do you believe that it is impossible for humans to want a mass death event? People kill others and themselves all the time, but I guess they just didn’t realize the fact that there would be bloodshed involved.
DeleteI found this blog because of genuine connections I used to have with people of your in your sphere of influence. You’re currently promoting a concept of destiny that rejects human choice. I believe you are only trying to apply this sort of thinking to me. By this framework, all of us here were waiting for this to happen a week ago. In fact, we were waiting for it since the time we were born (unless there was some sort of timeline split one week ago). We all ended up here because of our behavior. Behavior that is a little bit more complex than waiting around all day. Some women die without ever having children. Most women who have children now have them because they actually want to. My mother wanted to have me. Did yours?
Your statement that being forced into a sexual relationship is the destiny that women are all waiting for cannot be proven. If you truly believe in this sort of all powerful reproductive destiny, then you should talk this way about men too. But you don’t talk this way about them because you believe that only men have agency, and you have no sexual insecurity regarding them. If you’re heterosexual, you have nothing to lose from them saying no.
What does being attractive have to do with any of this? If you consider me ugly then I guess I’ll somehow be waiting less than other women? But still technically waiting all the same? Why does it matter if I’m old either? If I’m lifelong sexual property then people should be allowed to force me into sexual service at any age. Have marriages involving old people been illegal for most of human history? Why do you have to specify that this is especially true if I’m female? This is true for men, but still a little less true? How exactly do you quantify that?
DeleteWhat sort of relationship should you be forced into? How many rejections are you allowed, as a man, before you get forced to marry an African woman because no one else is willing to take you? The idea that most cultures practiced strict monogamy seems a bit disingenuous as well. A lot of prominent cultures had polygyny and concubines. Including the Chinese. This ability would be most common among the upper class, but the fact that the most powerful people had so many cases of this doesn’t seem to imply that they were as strict as you suggest.
If you have a study that estimates exactly how much of the human population that has ever lived was monogamous, then please show me. I wouldn’t be upset if this was true but it seems like you’re projecting Western standards onto other cultures. Most African Americans aren’t even able to stay in long term, monogamous relationships.
This essay is also not about traditional culture. The man you are sweeping for rejects traditionalism. It is an essay using non-biological concepts and modern day hookup problems that attempts to assert itself as evolutionary fact.
I don’t know if any female ancestors or mine who were raped. You’d have to go back far enough to those we have little to no record of. Suppose that one of these countless women were raped and you know this for a fact. Okay? I wouldn’t exist without consensual relationships either. I also wouldn’t exist without the Irish Famine, Catholicism, Benito Mussolini causing an Italian Exodus, American military presence in France post WW2, the wealth this country has had since WW2, and without the death of a sibling that encouraged my mother to have one more child than she initially wanted. Are you or your leader going to make essays sweeping for every single one of these things? Or are you not going to do that because defending all of these historical phenomena just because they technically got my family together to make me would result in values that all negate eachother and whatever you currently believe in?
Are you incapable of explaining something without referring to your thought leader?
I have already explained that there are no “property” genes and that property is not a biological concept. You’re repeating this statement about how we evolved to be owned anyways in addition to historical explanation. Why do you need both? You don’t believe in traditionalism. You also can’t provide actual proof of property genes within women. It seems like you really shouldn’t use either.
Delete‘Evolved’ does not imply evolutionary theory as a whole. Evolved is an adjective and a comparative one. This adjective implies that something has gone through many more changes than something else. Primitive is a textbook antonym that almost everyone uses as such. If a jellyfish is primitive then it is because it has changed little over a long period of time. It is less evolved. Evolution is not equivalent with the passage of time. Humans are a comparatively young species compared to many others so what you’re saying in regards to them having gone through just as many years of evolution is not true.
I didn’t ask what I would do in that situation. I asked what YOU would do. YOU might be forced to have sex with this guy if you are to survive. If you refuse he might kill you or refuse to provide any help, and we have no idea how long you would last without him. You’re turning my question to you back onto me because you don’t want to genuinely think about this or answer this. The thought of being forced into sex by a man disgusts you (and that is all well and good), but the threat of dying in this theoretical situation is also unwanted, and instead of genuinely considering it for yourself, you just deflected it back at me. ‘If you want to survive’ is an important qualifier. The answer to that question, when weighed against the alternative, could be no. Must people not prefer to be dead over being forced into sex with anyone you can imagine? Maybe I try some ploy where I kill the man in his sleep if I am able, and then live out however much time I can manage by myself? If this were to happen then it would simply be a description of reality. Any sort of feeling, thought, or belief on the matter that you would have is a normative statement rather than a description of reality.
How exactly are you really against normative statements? What is your leader’s desire to create reproduction licenses then? Reproduction licenses are not observable reality. No country has ever had that level of biopower. The closest equivalent is the disastrous One Child Policy in Communist China. It’s not an observable reality in the West, though. It’s something he WANTS to be a part of reality.
Your leader has explicitly criticized people like Nick Fuentes (who I dislike) in the past for being more “charismatic” (to a small cult of yes men) than he is genuinely insightful.
DeleteIf it’s anyone else, he will attack them for choosing mass appeal over pure accuracy. Yet of course he is allowed to be “provocative” for the sake of his audience, even if you claim it is not intended to be accurate. On a blog that doesn’t reach outside of an extremely insular sphere of men like you, who is trying to assert this ‘provocative’ statement as a fact that I should internalize. I am supposed to take you at your word that you aren’t pro-rape when you are literally doing everything in your power to belittle me for being disgusted by it. Why exactly do you people care about my emotions? My emotions are a part of reality. Disgust and anger are parts of reality that can simply be described by the people who feel them. My emotions about your constant defense of rape are worth attacking me for over and over. But your emotions regarding how little you’d be turned on it you tried to rape a woman are worth including in this impersonal discussion because…?
If the girl you mentioned in that age range would’ve preferred a boy closer to that age, then can I view that as preferable to relationships with older men? I thought that girls sexual feelings don’t matter because their selection wasn’t made to matter and they’re all borderline asexual. Why do you bring this up?
I have not said that arranged marriages are all enabling rape. They can create justification for rape, but there are cultures with matchmaker systems that allow women the right to say no. I said that. It’s also very possible that the guy does not view his wife as desirable either and thus is being ‘forced’ in the same way his wife is. If the woman wants she can tell the man she is married to that she does not want to have sex with her. If he uses his strength to force her to, then it is marital rape. That is how rape can be enabled by some, but not all, arranged marriages. And because this all happens in individual bedrooms it is kind of retarded to jump to conclusions on just how much all of these scenarios would’ve happened in the past.
I have a relative who was homosexual and expected to get married. Neither person in that marriage was a rapist. But it did end in divorce because his wife was completely devastated to find out she was married to a man who never had genuine attraction to her and was sleeping with other men. The arranged marriage discussion and it’s complexities don’t really matter when neither of us are in one and you are okay with defending unambiguous rape, which you refer to as rape, as a simple part of nature. This is proof of what happens when a man online chooses intentionally unclear phrasing like ‘forced sexual relationships’ instead of ‘rape’ or ‘arranged marriages’. ‘Forced sexual relationships’ by definition would include rape, but arranged marriages are more so caused by peer pressure than physical force and said physical force could only really happen afterward in some (but not all) cases.
You are not just focusing on the arranged marriage. You’re choosing to admit that you are including what I suspected you of referring to. You’re trying to convince me that my more nuanced take on arranged marriage (that it is not rape, but can lead to it) is inconsistent because choosing only the rape defense wouldn’t be a good look for you.
What can I call this next cope? The ‘false neutrality fallacy’? Say a man comes across some other guy who is a cuckhold. Some woman states this in plain terms in a way that probably comes across as ridiculing since most people understand that it is taboo. The man then proceed to spend many hours using everything he can to argue against the woman who called the cuck a cuck. He tells this woman that she might’ve had an ancestor who was cuckholded. He tells her that she wouldn’t have existed without it if that’s true. He says she is wrong for disliking him and that she should simply go back and look at the cuck with an open mind. Is that neutrality? Does it make sense for him to take all of these steps if he doesn’t even think that cuckholdry is the way to go? Why doesn’t he just say nothing at all?
DeleteAs I mentioned, I have no known relatives who were raped or in an actual arranged marriage. When you talk about my ancestors I assume you are going way past anything that I actively know of. If you are allowed to deny that any one of the countless Chinese people you are descended from were Confucian because you don’t personally know them (which is unlikely as all hell and you know it) then what exactly does that make of your assertion that one of my ancestors was a rapist? Your assertion that my ancestors were rapists is irrelevant. Why don’t you keep my ancestors out of your mouth?
Why do you hate yourself you like a loser? You don’t like that you are submissive from a philosophical or biological standard? Do your philosophical and biological standards seriously not have room for you, a single guy out of billions of guys, to want a woman to make the first move? Does the fetish run into really dark and twisted territory beyond that? A standard that you cannot follow is hypocrisy. A standard that you cannot follow is purely for other people to internalize. That fits the definition of your ultimate enemy, morality, as well.
I definitely do not hate my sexual orientation and I do not have standards that indicate that others should hate their attraction to men or women. I think that heterosexuals will be the majority. I think that this is good. I think that other sexualities are disorders that shouldn’t be forced to reproduce. Why did you choose to mention a private detail that goes against your biological standards if this is supposed to be an impersonal discussion of biology? The one thing you have convinced me of is that I genuinely want there to be some sort of study that can take a bunch of guys from the dissident right (and related spheres) and measure just how many of them project ‘might makes right’ beliefs around sex to cover up for some sort of deep rooted sexual failure (being an incel, being a pedo, being a closeted homo, being divorced, etc).
‘Nobody cares about the last comment’. Yet your king is now stating that he will delete my comments if I continue. If he does this then he will conveniently have the last comment. This is basic cause and effect. I think he can go ahead and delete my comments. In fact, he can delete the entire thread. I have screenshotted every single comment and will be screenshotting the last few that I decide to leave as well. As of right now, the entire conversation so far is up on your Discord which I am now a part of under the name ‘Anon’. You can find it in the community building channel.
Since anon joined the discord server, I'll leave her comments up.
DeleteYes, I don't let other people get the last word on my blog, if they're hostile, dishonest and clearly want the last word. Why should I give them that satisfaction? I allow people to criticize me, but that's not a blank check to babble incessantly.
I'm busy and I have more important things to do, so I'm not going to respond to Anon's comments. This performatively demonstrates that I really don't care about who gets the last word.
Delete