Nazism
Nazism is usually presented as a negative moral exemplar without any rational analysis. Nazism is also linked to the theory of evolution, again, without any rational analysis. Nazism is often referred to as “Darwinian’’, although what this means is never spelled out. Certain ideas that were incorporated into Nazism, such as eugenics, are now considered evil because of their association with Nazism. Any use of evolutionary theory to understand human nature and/or solve social problems is equated with Nazism and rejected as evil. This places some very important ideas off-limits to discussion and debate.
In this essay, I am going to analyze and critique the Nazi worldview from a “Darwinian” perspective. I will also critique the popular moral narrative about the Nazis and WWII.
In the modern Western mythos, Hitler is the epitome of evil. He is simply portrayed as an evil person motivated by hatred. The Allies are presented as morally good, and their victory in WWII is portrayed as a victory of good over evil. As a mythical narrative, the story of WWII illustrates a moral principle and serves the function of social cohesion. We are the good guys and they were the bad guys. We won and they lost.
However, the myth of WWII does not hold up to basic scrutiny. Hitler was not a monster. He was a human being with a different worldview. Nazism was not that different from the beliefs of most people in the Allied nations at the time. Both sides in WWII did things that most ordinary people would consider to be evil today, if those actions were presented outside the familiar moral narrative of WWII.
What was Nazism really? Was it a special kind of evil that captured the minds of Germans for some strange and inexplicable reason?
To understand Nazism, you need to understand its central concept: the “Volk’’. The Volk was the German people, viewed as a kind of organism. The metaphor of a people as an organism was part of a vitalist strain in social and historical thought that originated in the 19th century and seems to have been strongest in Germany. The human population was viewed as composed of “peoples’’. A people, such as the German Volk, was viewed as analogous to an organism. In this view, a people was a coherent whole that had its own history, developed according to its own plan, and had its own purpose or destiny. The nation-state was the political corollary of the concept of a people. To act as a unit, a people had to constitute itself into a political structure that could act effectively in the world as a unit. That structure was the nation-state.
The metaphor of a people as an organism is deeply flawed. It projects the properties of an individual onto a collective. It involves the fallacy of composition in viewing the whole as essentially the same as its parts. A collective does not have the properties of an individual. A collective of individuals can be organized into a society, but a society is not held together by shared genes or by some mystical essence. A society is held together by a power structure (a system of incentives) that gives it both coherence and agency. The biological raison d’etre of the individual is not to perpetuate a collective or society. It is simply to reproduce. Does a collective have a biological raison d’etre? No, not really.
The vitalist metaphor is persuasive, however. The ordinary person can understand the metaphor of a people as a kind of composite person. And it is easy for the individual to identify with this composite person of which he is a part, and to view his interests as similar or identical to its interests, as they are metaphorically conceived. The vitalist conception of a people, or nation, proved to be useful in organizing individuals toward political ends. It provided a justification for society that ordinary people could understand and relate to emotionally: one that was simple and moral, rather than complicated and causal/functional. It could be used to motivate and organize large collectives toward social change.
Nationalism can be defined as a type of political ideology that:
- Is centered on the definition of the collective.
- Idealizes and personifies that collective.
- Dismisses other concerns as secondary or unimportant.
Nationalism is a form of identity politics, and it usually arises either as a separatist movement within a larger society, or as a reaction to an external threat.
After WWI, Germany was not exactly in either of those situations, but in a situation that combined aspects of both. The German people were not united under a single government. Germany and Austria had suffered a humiliating defeat in WWI. Lands with majority German populations were occupied by foreign powers. Germany did not have a stable government or a generally accepted political ideology after the collapse of the monarchy. People either feared or hoped for a communist revolution like the one that had just seized power in Russia. There was a large Jewish minority that had disproportionate economic and political power. Given those conditions, it was not surprising that Germany turned toward nationalism.
Nazism has to be understood as a nationalist ideology situated in a specific time and place. In the Nazi worldview, the proper collective was the Volk: the German people. The concept of the Volk referred to a common ancestry and character out of which the German culture had sprung. The existence and importance of the Volk was taken for granted as self-evident, in the same way that “all men are created equal” is taken for granted as self-evident in the US Declaration of Independence.
In the Nazi worldview, the purpose of the German state was to organize the Volk into a unified whole and to secure the soil necessary for its perpetuation and expansion. That soil had to be acquired, of course, at the expense of other peoples. This was regarded as the moral right of a people and a nation. The struggle between peoples for perpetuation and expansion was seen as the driving force of history, a natural and inevitable process. In this view, the Volk was the ultimate source of value. Both the individual and the state were expected to serve the interests of the Volk.
There is an apparent moral inconsistency here. Altruism was expected at the level of the individual, but not at the level of the collective. Individuals were expected to sacrifice their interests for the greater good of the Volk, but the Volk was expected to act selfishly in its struggle for existence against other peoples. This inconsistency is resolved by the belief that the Volk, rather than the individual, is the intrinsic source of value. Individuals were viewed metaphorically as cells within an organism, with their purpose being the good of the organism. Individuals not acting for the good of the Volk were viewed as “cancer’’ or “parasites”. In either case, they had to be purged from the body. (As a child, Hitler watched his mother die from cancer, and that probably affected his view of the world.) Competition was the moral norm of nature, and thus morally acceptable between nations, but altruism was the moral norm within the body of the nation.
Nazism provided a worldview that was functionally complete and reasonably coherent, as long as one did not question its basic assumptions. The individual belonged to a greater whole from which he derived his identity and purpose. He could take pride in the accomplishments of his people. The state existed as a means of organizing the mass of the people toward its perpetuation and expansion. History was a struggle between peoples. The strongest would survive and the rest would perish. Culture was a manifestation of the inner character of the people, and also a means of unifying them into a coherent entity. There were other components of Nazi ideology, such as its opposition to democracy and its ambivalence towards capitalism and individual profit. But the crux of Nazism was the concept of the Volk. The Volk was the ultimate source of value and identity for both the individual and the state.
One of the natural implications of this view is that individuals who do not belong to the Volk are potential enemies. To Hitler, since the Jews were a different people, their interests would naturally be at odds with those of the Volk. The Jewish people would be expected to form their own social structures and to perpetuate and expand themselves at the expense of the Volk. The Jews were not only outsiders, they were insider-outsiders. They lived inside Germany and were associated with political movements viewed as harmful to Germany, including communism and social democracy. The Jews were viewed as a separate and hostile people using deception to undermine Germany from within. This view fit easily into the Nazi worldview. It made sense if you accepted the premises of Nazism.
If you try to understand the Nazi worldview, you see that it was not radically different from the ordinary worldview of many other places and times. Nazism was irrational, but not more irrational than the modern Western worldview.
Is Nazism Darwinian at all? Yes, in two important ways:
- Nazism accepts the existence of innate differences between individuals, populations and the sexes.
- Nazism accepts that life is intrinsically competitive: a struggle to exist in which there are winners and losers.
In those two ways, Nazism is biologically realistic, and more so than the humanist worldview of the modern West. Overall, however, it is more idealistic than realistic.
Was Nazism the epitome of evil?
The idea that the Nazis were uniquely evil, according to the modern Western conception of good and evil, is absurd.
The Allies in WWII deliberately killed civilians in cold blood, just as the Nazis did. The fire-bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, and the atomic-bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are well known examples. The pilot who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima knew that he was killing defenseless men, women, children and babies, just as the man sending Jews to concentration camps knew what he was doing. Both did what they were told to do by their societies, and both probably believed that their actions were morally good.
Hitler’s concentration camps were based on two historical examples: the concentration camps used by the British during the Boer War and the Indian Reservations created by Americans. Concentration camps were not unique to the Nazis, even during WWII. The Russians put captured German soldiers into camps where most died. The Americans put Japanese-Americans into concentration camps based purely on their racial and ethnic identity. Would the interned Japanese have survived WWII if Japanese troops had invaded the US mainland, bombed major cities, and disrupted the US economy to the point that US citizens were going hungry? I doubt it.
By modern Western standards, the Nazis were more evil than the Allies only because they had a different ideology. Nazis are considered evil because they were “racist” and (in the modern mythos) the allies weren’t racist. The Nazi killing of civilians is considered a horrible “crime against humanity” that must be remembered forever, while the Allied killing of civilians is excused and swept under the rug. That the British and Americans ceased killing once they had won the war was due to the fact that, in their worldview, they had already achieved their objectives and there was nothing to be gained by further killing of Germans. (The Russians went on a bit of a killing, raping and looting spree.)
The Allies and the Nazis both justified their actions as necessary to achieve ends that they claimed to be good. While spouting moralistic propaganda, both sides succeeded in demonstrating the selfish and violent nature of both individuals and societies.
It is time we moved both Nazism and WWII from the domain of myth and propaganda to the domain of history. Nazism was a nationalist movement that arose in Germany after WWI for historical reasons, had some minor accomplishments, started a catastrophic war, and lost. It was based on an idealistic conception of human nature that is not implied by evolutionary theory.
Following your logic, there's no difference between a witch hunt and the rule of law.
ReplyDeleteIn a witch hunt, your neighbour wants your apartment, and tells the authorities that you may have said something bad about God / The Communist Party / etc. You quickly end up tortured and killed, no evidence required, and the neighbour gets your apartment.
However, how is that different from a country where the individual is innocent until proven guilty? In both countries, troublemakers should be punished by the State. In both countries, the State has a monopoly on violence. So, (following your logic) they're morally equivalent.
This type of false equivalence is all you're using here.
There's a huge difference between a systemic communist or nazi genocide and the killing of a relatively small number of civilians in war to achieve some other goal. (The victims of the bombings were far less than the victims of all other bombings in Japan so far). The two collectivist systems, communism and nazism filled the 20th century with corpses, using similar reasoning - the commies were killing based on "class" privilege (which was a definition that can be expanded arbitrarily and indefinitely, so it resulted in way way more corpses), and the nazis killed based on a more rigid and clear definition. And you are basically saying that the US would have done the same, because we're all tribal selfish murderers. Yeah-no, it wouldn't have.
Nazis copied the death camp from the commies, where such death camps already existed. To compare these death camps to some US camps is like... I don't know, comparing a prisoner bench with an electric chair because both are designed with sitting on them in mind, so there isn't a significant difference... Right?
All armies kill civilians, but to place a moral equivalence between the unruly Red Army and its unrastrained (actually top down encouraged) rape, looting, torture and murder with the American one would also be inaccurate. (The fact that the Russians were great at maximizing their own losses also contributed to the way they behaved.)
Different civilization carry out even war crimes differently, or at least in different proportion. American bombs are preferable to hordes of Russian orcs. Even if the outcome is "the same" - getting killed, getting killed by a higher civilization is often preferable to getting killed by barbarians / enslaved animals that have never been anything else.
This is not necessarily a moral difference, it's a pragmatic difference and my grandma, if she were alive could tell you about it, since she could experience in practice both American bombings, and German and Russian armies going through.
I don't see how that (witch-hunt vs. rule of law) is an analogy to what I'm saying. There is no rule of law in war. There was indiscriminate killing on both sides. There was an internal suspension of the internal rule of law on both sides. (You think the US constitution allows for US citizens to be put in concentration camps because they are Japanese?) The US and Britain didn't kill a relatively small number of civilians. They deliberately killed millions of civilians. At the time, people in the US and Britain were not going hungry or suffering any major deprivation. Yes, I'm sure they would have abandoned their principles further if they had been hungry, as people always do.
DeleteFind me an example in history of people behaving "nobly and morally" on a large scale when they are hungry. The level of "morality" of a people is predicted fairly well by their level of hunger. Yes, it is better to be conquered by a "higher civilization" than a lower one, but only if "higher civilization" means that they aren't hungry and desperate for land. Basically, if you are going to be conquered, you want to be conquered by people who are rich, monogamous, and live far away.
The Nazi concentration camps were based on the camps used by the British in the Boer war:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War#Concentration_camps_(1900%E2%80%931902)
For most of human history, systematic genocide was normal. Tribal warfare is small-scale systematic genocide. It usually kills off a larger percentage of the population in each generation than the death tolls from WW1 and WW2 combined. (Russia might have reached levels close to that if you throw in the internal death toll from communism.) In spite of all its stupid ideologies, the 20th century wasn't exceptionally violent. It was exceptionally peaceful.
The point of this article is not to claim some kind of "moral equivalence". The point is to understand Nazism honestly as an ideology and historical event. In particular, I am arguing that Nazism is not a logical consequence of "Darwinism" (aka "biological realism"), but is based on a flawed conception of human nature.
War is not the only thing that was going on at the time. I always have "tribal warfare" and clans of monkeys in the back of my mind, when I'm reading about different atrocities. But even though ideology almost always supports and encourages "tribal warfare", ideology itself matters a lot.
DeleteDifferent societies live according to different values. These values may generate wealth or misery, life or death on a massive scale for their own members. Jews were "enemies" in a way, similar to the class / race / sex neo-marxist division you have there emerging the First World. But a division that was worse, again, like the difference between a chair and an electric chair.
I agree Nazis are not uniquely evil. I also know that they weren't the only ones (or even the most efficient ones) at carrying out genocides on a massive scale. Humans are genocidal in general, I know that too. I believe we're on the same page here. But you have to ask yourself where you'd prefer to be a citizen. Even if morality, good and evil are meaningless, inadequate concepts for you.
I would prefer to be a citizen in a society of high IQ, well fed people, with basically liberal values, a free market, eugenic reproduction control, respect for the environment, and a cultural value of advancing human knowledge and agency. I would like humanity to go beyond war and tribalism forever. Of course that describes no existing society :(
DeleteThe original Barbarossa plan (which anticipated a quick two week victory at the Soviet borders) included the starvation and eventual brick-by-brick erazing of both Moscow and Leningrad with a combined population of 5 million. Moscow in particular was to be replaced with an artificial lake symbolizing the utter destruction of East Slavic civilization. These cities were important economic and transportational hubs with lots of valuable workforce. How does this sound like anything other than batshit crazy and pure fucking evil?
ReplyDeleteThe Allies glassed Dresden and nuked two Japanese cities, while starving civilian populations. The Soviets annihilated a large percentage of the Russian population after the revolution. The Chinese communists slaughtered and starved millions. Etc, etc.
DeletePeople have always slaughtered each other in large numbers. That's the point of war. It's about killing, raping, and looting. Ideally, we could create a global civilization that brings an end to war, but we haven't gotten there yet, and we've been fighting wars for all of history.
Each side in a war claims that it is "good", the other side is "evil", its atrocities are justified by the ends, but the atrocities of the other side are not justified, blah, blah, blah.
This article suffers from a couple false premises. One, that nationalism is a composition fallacy or that an individual's reproduction is more important than that of the group it belongs to (following this logic means cancer cells should not be killed). And two, that they massacred civilians.
ReplyDeleteThere is no reproduction of the group. We reproduce as individuals. Natural selection is based on the reproduction of the individual.
DeleteWhen you say "more important", what are you talking about?
Obviously, from the organism's perspective, the cancer cells are harmful and should be eliminated. Cancer cells have lost their somatic purpose, and evolved into single-celled reproducing units, so they have their own purposes.
Regardless, the relation of the human individual to society (or nation, whatever) is not the same, precisely because individuals have their own purposes. They can switch societies. Two societies can merge into one. One society can split into two. Your body has none of those properties.
All sides in WW2 massacred civilians.
The nationalist conception of the people as an organism is not supposed to be viewed from a purely biological perspective, but also a moral one. The most fundamental tenet of nationalism is necessarily the survival of a population which ascribes to it. Individuals cannot live forever, but populations can, so the survival of the people is paramount.
DeleteRegarding massacre of civilians: You wrote that he "knew what he was doing," which strongly implies deference to a preposterous myth.
P.S. Note that I'm deliberately avoiding the word "Volk", because we already have a word that means the same thing: "people", as in, "We the People..."
The Nazis did not distinguish between biology and morality. They projected their morality onto nature (the moralistic fallacy), and then justified their morality by calling it "natural" (naturalistic fallacy). It was an ideology that emerged at a point in history, for various reasons. A population doesn't "live", so it can't live forever. A population is just a category of people. Yeah, they viewed the Volk as an type of organism, based on a misunderstanding of biology.
DeleteIf you don't believe that the Nazis mass-killed Jews, you can make that argument, but it doesn't really interest me. It think it's pretty clear that all countries involved in the war committed atrocities.
"Volk" is not the same as "people" in "We the people...". "Volk" means people of Germanic ancestry, living in any country, as if they comprise a coherent entity. "We the people of the United States" refers to the people of a certain region and political unit. Those words were written at a time when those people were about to fight a war with the British, despite most of them having British ancestry.
If you're focused on fallacies you will find them everywhere, because people don't generally use terms only in hyperliteral ways. Such a text would be unreadable. WW2 nationalism did not mistake the metaphor of the people-as-organism to mean a nation can sexually reproduce, as if there are a male and female nations. I explained in another comment why the genetic group is relevant to natural selection.
DeletePopulations do live forever, and it is hard to misunderstand this without being pointlessly pedantic. The point is a moral code must have as its top priority the survival of at least one person who ascribes to it, but since individual persons die, the greatest good must entail the reproduction of its mortal followers. This argument can't be refuted by saying populations don't live, which would be a silly rebuttal to almost any statement about biology.
“It think it's pretty clear that all countries involved in the war committed atrocities.”
This is disingenuous in the extreme. You clearly insinuated the use of gas chambers and death camps. It is impossible to interpret the following line any other way, unless you are a time-traveler from the future oblivious to the context of modern discourse:
“the man sending Jews to concentration camps knew what he was doing.”
You can't pretend this is too boring to address on the grounds that "all countries involved in the war committed atrocities", because only one of these alleged crimes is illegal to deny in 20 European countries.
Volk does not mean exactly the same as the English word People. But, this is true of 99.99% of words. Let's not be pedantic. Volk should be translated as people. If any nuance needs clarification, that can be provided, but anyone who needs it is unlikely to know what Volk means either, so there's no advantage when you have to mention its definition anyway. The same people leaving Volk untranslated tend to leave words like weltanschauung untranslated too, proving this is a tradition maintained by bad translators missing the point of translating.
I didn't say that the Nazis believed that the Volk could sexually reproduce. That would be ridiculous. Deal with what I said. They viewed the Volk as an organism. That was their metaphor for understanding the relationship between the individual and the Volk: that the individual was like a cell in the body. In this view, the individual is instrumental to the Volk. The individual serves the greater purpose of the survival of the Volk. That is what you believe, isn't it?
DeleteAnd that is a false understanding of biology.
The individual relationship to a clade (species, subspecies) is instance-type. The individual is an instance of a type. The relationship is not part-whole. That's the core misconception: thinking of the type as a coherent whole with a purpose, of which the individual is a part.
A population isn't an organism, so it doesn't live. A population is just a category of people, such as "all men over 6 feet tall". Normally, we talk about the population of a country or some other social unit, such as "the population of Canada". Sometimes, we define a population based on ancestry, such as "the black population of the US". Sometimes, we base it on culture/beliefs, such as "the Christian population". These are all just categories.
Whether a population exists in the future depends on whether the category continues to be meaningful and have reference. For example, the population of the Holy Roman Empire is no longer a meaningful concept, because it depends on a political unit that no longer exists.
"The point is a moral code must have as its top priority the survival of at least one person who ascribes to it, but since individual persons die, the greatest good must entail the reproduction of its mortal followers. "
A moral code is a system of concepts and ideas, which is part of culture, not biology. Moral codes come and go, like religions, and they also change over time, like religions, and they're delusions, like religions. So....what are you talking about? This makes no sense. Where does this "greatest good" come from?
Again, I don't really care about the historical truth or falsity of the holocaust. I wasn't there to see any of these events. Of course, I'm skeptical about anything that is illegal to deny, but it doesn't follow that no Jews were killed by the Nazis. I don't think many holocaust deniers would claim that the Nazis did not kill civilians. If you want to dedicate your life to researching it, go ahead, but I have bigger fish to fry.
Well, you obviously care about the word choice, because you said that you were deliberately avoiding the word "Volk". To the Nazis, the Volk was the German people, viewed as a kind of organism. That's what it meant. It was all German people, whether they lived in Poland, Austria, Germany, etc. It carried ideological weight. "People" in English does not carry ideological weight. The direct translation is "folk", which has slightly different connotations in English, but doesn't have the meaning of "Volk" to the Nazis.
The Nazis tangled up biology, culture and society in the concept of the "Volk", and they didn't understand any of those things. Once you sacralize something, you can't understand it. It is placed off-limits to reason.
If you want to understand biology, culture and society, you need to discard your sacred notion of the "group".
Defining all ideologies as delusions is comical in the context of this blog, which is dedicated to promoting your personal ideology. You seem to be aiming for the ideal of having no ideals at all. Throughout your writings, at every point you depart from ethnic nationalism, you offer a self-defeating argument as an alternative.
Delete“I don't really care about the historical truth or falsity of the holocaust.”
DeleteBut you do, otherwise, you wouldn't have insinuated it was true. Let me remind readers of the relevant line from your post:
“the man sending Jews to concentration camps knew what he was doing.”
The way I define "ideology", all ideologies are delusions. An ideology is a system of ideas that is linked to identity and has a moral component. Since I reject morality as a delusion, I reject ideology as a delusion.
DeleteIf you just want to make stupid accusations, and ignore the arguments, go somewhere else. I'm not here to feed you the ideological pablum that you want. Lots of other people will do that. You want help deceiving yourself? There are many people who will do that for you. I'm not in that business.
Evidently the Holocaust is too controversial for you to discuss without resorting to insults. And you do this while pretending to take the moral high ground, yet rejecting morality as a delusion in the same breath. Enjoy frying your bigger fish.
DeleteDude, you insulted me first. I don't have time for this. I will delete any future comments from you.
DeleteYou already explained to me that the Nazis didn't have the ridiculous belief that modern Western nations have: the belief that there is genetic equality between different populations of humanity. This is one of the reasons why you said that the Nazis accepted the existence of innate differences between populations of humanity. The Nazis also recognized that West Europe had developmentally surpassed the rest of the world, right? This article ( https://inquisitivebird.xyz/p/the-rise-of-the-west ) can be used to explain some of the reasons that contributed to the rise of Nazism, right?
ReplyDeleteYes, and yes.
DeleteYou said that some of the Nazis' beliefs were less ridiculous than those of modern Westerners. Did the Soviet Communists also hold some beliefs that were less ridiculous by comparison?
ReplyDeleteWell, we have some new crazy beliefs, such as transgenderism, that the old-school communists didn't have. They didn't celebrate disability, sexual perversion, etc. But that was just common sense at the time, in all countries, not something specific to communist ideology.
Delete"The "end goals" are defined by the ideology."
DeleteAnd some are more moral than others.
"Whether a society actually acts toward its ideological end goals depends on various things. An ideology can exist without having much impact on society. It is primarily a justification framework, not a program of action."
Both Allies and Nazis acted towards their ideological end goals, so I do not see how this is relevant here.
"Yes, the Nazis killed lots of people. So did the communists, with their ideology of universal brotherhood and altruism. Ideologies with very different end goals can motivate/justify mass-killing."
Correct (though the Nazis were much more efficient and brutal in their killing). How is this relevant to the discussion? I was talking about end goals and whether they are moral or not, and about ideology only tangentially.
"Did the US treat their prisoners and interned civilians better than Nazis treated prisoners and interned civilians? Yes, but US civilians weren't going hungry, as I said. You could argue that it was also due to an ideological difference, which might be true to some extent, but ideologies don't override basic human instincts."
The German populace and army also were not going hungry, and also the mass killings happened before the war started going south for them, like I just said, so this is not relevant. Germany in WW1 had similar problems and they did not commit genocide then. Also, there is a difference between starving and fighting for resources, versus having plenty of resources for yourself and murdering other innocent people you do not like which would have had minimal to no influence on your survival. Also, ideologies can temper human instincts in certain occasions (Christianity has probably made people less prone to violence than the human sacrificing religions before them).
"The Allies initiated bombing campaigns against civilian targets, and the US and Britain largely fought in that way, while the USSR and Germany bled each other out on the Eastern front. The Allies deliberately killed millions of civilians."
Again, where the hell are you getting these figures from? I know of less than half that.
Bombing cities, which includes civilians, is standard war practice, and collateral casualties will happen. This is a trade-off you have to make in every war. And as for intentional targeting of civilians, it is much rarer, again on both sides. This was a wrong committed by both sides, yes (the Blitz counts here as well). And even if the Allies were somehow a bit worse, the Nazis have other, unrelated, much clearer and monstrous atrocities which put them severely above the Allies in moral blame.
"You can argue it was justified to win the war, stop the Nazis, etc. But of course the winning side will always view its atrocities in that way."
I do not care what every side says, I care who makes the best arguments. And the arguments of the Allies for bombing some targets or nuking Japan to get an imbecilic military government to finally declare peace are a million times more defensible than arguing that millions of innocents secretely want to steal from you and ruin your nation in vague ways and that the only way to stop it is to gas said millions. One class of argument, while more than likely wrong, can be contended with, the other is psychopathy.
"The Nazis would have justified their atrocities too, as necessary for the greater good (as they defined it)."
DeleteAnd their definition is psychopathic and awful and should be dimantled.
"The USSR could justify its mass killing as necessary to bring about a communist utopia."
And they would be wrong too.
"Because the West's ideology is humanism (essentially), the West justifies its atrocities as necessary to save people."
This end goal, besides being better and more in line with less awful conceptions of morality, lends itself to generally lesser atrocities and pain and suffering. The Allies objectively commited less atrocities, and then the Communists objectively commited worse human rights abuses than capitalist countries.
"Of course, that seems better to you, because it is your ideology."
Yes, my ideology of "people should not be killed and tortured and starved due to psychopathy and paranoia". I guess I am putting my foot down here: I believe that good things are good, and that bad things are bad, actually.
"Millions of civilians died from Allied military action. Was the number higher on the other side? If you count all the civilians who died from hunger in China and Russia, yes."
I do not know what you are referring to. Regardless, see above: collateral damage, which war participants generally tried to minimise, but cannot do so completely. Could this number have been lower? Certainly, and this is something worthy of discussion. You, however, are deliberately failing to think in terms of relative differences, degrees of magnitude, and end goals, and etc. etc.
"But millions of civilians died in the USSR under German occupation, for various reasons (including some ideologically motivated killing)."
Yes, and it is horrible, and no one contests that. The fact the Soviets/Russians have never properly apologised is a tragedy which should be rectified.
DOES NOT EXCUSE NAZISM.
"I think the concentration camp deaths were mostly due to starvation during the war. We have seen pictures of corpses piled up -- of people who died from hunger/disease. But I agree that the Nazi ideology justified killing non-Germans to advance the Volk."
I need a source for this, as, frankly, you are beginning to reek of Holocaust denial, and that is something I have no patience for.
"But again, the US had no problem killing Japanese by bombing to avoid a far smaller number of casualties in a land invasion."
Yes, it's called utilitarianism.
"And there was no reason to nuke two cities. They just wanted to test the effects of nuclear bombs on people. They could have dropped a bomb in Tokyo harbor, if they wanted to spare civilians, and then said "Next one is on Tokyo itself". But they didn't do that."
Yes, it was awful, I accept that. But, again - it is an endlessly more defensible and understandable and fundamentally less awful position than mass genocide. Do you agree with this or no?
"And the communists, with their ideology of altruism, also killed huge numbers of civilians, and engaged in ethnic cleansing after the war was won. Different "end goals", but same atrocities."
DeleteNot completely the same, but yes, they can coincide. And here you are equivocating: liberalism and communism may use the term "altruism", but communism has a conception of altruism so detached from actual human emoathy and morality as to be meaningless. Communists had an end goal which involved murdering/getting rid of massive swathes of people, and so are more ocmparable to Nazis in their awful end goals (even if different) than to liberals. And end goals generally lend themselves to different instrumental goals too - les awful end goals, generally less awful instrumental end goals too (though this correlation is not perfect).
"There are different ideologies, but people are people, and war is hell."
Funny how you can wage war without creating gas chambers for innocents which are not participating in said war.
"I assume you believe that the Nazis were the epitome of evil because they wanted to take land for their people, while killing or displacing other people."
No, they are AN epitome of evil for genociding millions of innocents. I only care about the fact that their reasons were nowhere justified enough to do something as awful as this, under a vast majority of moral theories.
"Do you understand that all societies have done that one way or another, whatever their justification for it? All societies acquire land and resources by conquest."
Conquest != mass genocide, also different historical context. The US went through the great depression without murdering half of Canada.
"Do you understand that life is a struggle?"
Funny how Europe manage to increase the conditions of all of its populations after WW2, while life was still a struggle WITHOUT slaughtering millions of innocents. It is almost like struggle is relative to your conditions, and that the conditions were good enough to not warrant genocide. Or what - is EVERYTHING EVER justified because life is a struggle?
Do you have any conception of:
ReplyDelete1. End goals
2. Quality
3. Quantity
?
"The Allies in WWII deliberately killed civilians in cold blood, just as the Nazis did."
Orders of magnitude less, in endlessly less barbaric and more lenient ways, for instrumental reasons (win the war as quickly as possible to prevent MORE death) as opposed to disgusting final goals (murder everyone because they are intrinsically inferior and wrong and evil even if innocent).
"The pilot who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima knew that he was killing defenseless men, women, children and babies"
You mean the man who dropped bombs on cities who had been warned for months previously that they will get bombed, giving the government of Japan ample time and incentive to evacuate, out of a belief that this action might prevent more death as the Japanese gobernment might actually surrender instead of sending even more soldiers to be killed endlessly, as opposed to forcibly looking for and rounding up civilians to be killed in gas chambers because that is in itself a good thing?
"Hitler’s concentration camps were based on two historical examples: the concentration camps used by the British during the Boer War and the Indian Reservations created by Americans."
You have swallowed Nazi euphemisms hook, line, and sinker, congratulations. Those camps (while awful etc. etc.) were concentration camps, were people were concentrated, so they wouldn't go anywhere else, like prison camps. Meanwhile, Nazi camps were DEATH camps, were people were put to DEATH, or put to slave labour until they DIED. Comparing the two, even if one might have been influenced by the others, is laughable. Also, both had happened decades or even centuries before the war, and the nations involved had already began reconsidering the terrible things they had done, while the Nazis were in the midst of doing it.
"Concentration camps were not unique to the Nazis, even during WWII. The Russians put captured German soldiers into camps where most died. The Americans put Japanese-Americans into concentration camps based purely on their racial and ethnic identity."
See above - not death camps. The comparison is even more laughable - Japanese civilians had conditions in absolutely no way comparable to GAS CHAMBER CAMPS! (Again not defending etc.) Also, where the hell did you get "most"?
"Would the interned Japanese have survived WWII if Japanese troops had invaded the US mainland, bombed major cities, and disrupted the US economy to the point that US citizens were going hungry? I doubt it."
The US treated their prisoners of war better than Germans. Also, Jews were not soldiers, just civilians who were ideologically chosen to be put to DEATH, in a manner which is simply not comparable to the US (who were afraid of the Japanese as spies, not as beings intrinsically deserving of death). So no, I do not doubt it at all. Not to mention that the genociding was happening even when Germany was WINNING. And the genocide was order, it was not spontaneous, due to lack of resources - what the hell are you even talking about?
The "end goals" are defined by the ideology. Whether a society actually acts toward its ideological end goals depends on various things. An ideology can exist without having much impact on society. It is primarily a justification framework, not a program of action.
DeleteYes, the Nazis killed lots of people. So did the communists, with their ideology of universal brotherhood and altruism. Ideologies with very different end goals can motivate/justify mass-killing.
Did the US treat their prisoners and interned civilians better than Nazis treated prisoners and interned civilians? Yes, but US civilians weren't going hungry, as I said. You could argue that it was also due to an ideological difference, which might be true to some extent, but ideologies don't override basic human instincts.
The Allies initiated bombing campaigns against civilian targets, and the US and Britain largely fought in that way, while the USSR and Germany bled each other out on the Eastern front. The Allies deliberately killed millions of civilians.
You can argue it was justified to win the war, stop the Nazis, etc. But of course the winning side will always view its atrocities in that way. The Nazis would have justified their atrocities too, as necessary for the greater good (as they defined it). The USSR could justify its mass killing as necessary to bring about a communist utopia. Etc. Because the West's ideology is humanism (essentially), the West justifies its atrocities as necessary to save people. Of course, that seems better to you, because it is your ideology.
Millions of civilians died from Allied military action. Was the number higher on the other side? If you count all the civilians who died from hunger in China and Russia, yes. Otherwise, I don't think so, but the stats are hard to parse. The US and Britain used direct mass killing of civilians more as military tactic. But millions of civilians died in the USSR under German occupation, for various reasons (including some ideologically motivated killing).
I think the concentration camp deaths were mostly due to starvation during the war. We have seen pictures of corpses piled up -- of people who died from hunger/disease. But I agree that the Nazi ideology justified killing non-Germans to advance the Volk.
But again, the US had no problem killing Japanese by bombing to avoid a far smaller number of casualties in a land invasion. And there was no reason to nuke two cities. They just wanted to test the effects of nuclear bombs on people. They could have dropped a bomb in Tokyo harbor, if they wanted to spare civilians, and then said "Next one is on Tokyo itself". But they didn't do that.
And the communists, with their ideology of altruism, also killed huge numbers of civilians, and engaged in ethnic cleansing after the war was won. Different "end goals", but same atrocities.
There are different ideologies, but people are people, and war is hell.
I assume you believe that the Nazis were the epitome of evil because they wanted to take land for their people, while killing or displacing other people.
Do you understand that all societies have done that one way or another, whatever their justification for it? All societies acquire land and resources by conquest.
Do you understand that life is a struggle?
"I "breathe sophisms" because I'm just talking about ideas and events without moralizing?"
DeleteYou are constantly making moral claims to the effect of "the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis" (you do not say this explicitly, but you do not say that the Nazis were worse explicitly either, and your tone suggest the former - if I am being unfair, I am sorry, but you should then be clearer for the reader). As such, if one claims that a side is worse than another, one is moralising. Do you believe that moralising is in itself bad, and that all actors are equally moral always? Because I doubt that you do.
You "breathe sophisms" because every paragraph of yours is filled with fallacies and bad arguments and lack of sources, which, in my view, counts, and which I have tried to show in all of my comments.
"There's no fallacy of gray in what I said. I'm just viewing both sides from a detached perspective. I'm not arguing for a middle position between them. Instead, I'm taking a step back and pointing out their similarities and differences."
A detached perspective in moral argumentation does not entail treating both as the same. Again, you do not explicitly make this claim, but your whole essay leans towards it. If that is not the case, make this clear, otherwise you come across as dishonest even if that was not your intention. It's a matter of framing: you could certainly frame this that the Allies were not saints and that they did awful stuff which is not justified by the awful morality of their opponents - that would be great! But you don't - you seem to nudge the reader towards "because they are so similar, there is actually no meaningful moral difference between them", which is something I vehemently disagree with, and which IS a fallacy of gray.
""The Allies were infinitely less selfish and violent"
No, they had different end goals, and a different ideology."
End goals and ideology which are infinitely less selfish and violent :)
"At the time, Britain had a huge global empire based on trade, and the US was a continent-spanning country with a huge amount of resources and a relatively small population (because they conquered land and replaced native populations). Under Hitler, Germany was trying to do something like what Britain and the US had already done, not long before."
1. Neither of the two nations had done such industrialised, inhuman, mass scale intentional murdering of innocents as Germany did, 2. Both were beginning to realise the error of their ways and trying to mend, which Germany absolutely did not (as I mentioned), 3. As was shown after the war (and, frankly, before it, dammit) under capitalism, you can create amazing wealth and power for yourself WITHOUT conquest and genocude, and 4. (Get this) You can conquer WITHOUT MURDERING MILLIONS (Austria-Hungary, for instance), said millions sometimes having already been living within the confines of your nation.
Delete"At the time, Germany had a rapidly-growing population. The Nazis were right in understanding that life involves a struggle over finite resources."
They had enough to not have to murder millions, proven before and especially after the war in Europe and the US.
"Their ideology was more realistic/honest in that way."
Scarcity is a central tenent of capitalism and supply and demand, so no. Also, calling them realistic is nonsensical - there is an appropriate level of fear and conflict between humans, but go above this (natural!) level and you are just crippinglingly paranoid or a psychopath. Humans have evolutionarily developed empathy and co-operative behaviours too, and ignoring them is not realistic and honest. Capitalism integrates both selfishness and co-operation - it thrives on both in a way psychotic Nazism does not.
"They wanted to take resources from other people to support their growing population."
They didn't need to, as I have said several times. Economics is not zero sum - if it were, we would still be hunter-gatherers.
"Hitler viewed the East as a frontier (analogous to the American frontier in the 1800s), which could be expanded into. Now, this was extremely naive, because the situation was nothing like the American frontier. But that was his view: that the German people would expand to the East, as the Americans had expanded to the West."
He was historically and economically illiterate, then.
"The US and Britain lost far fewer people in the war, both civilians and military, than the Germans. The Soviets had huge casualties, largely due to the fact that they were invaded. They also lost many soldiers due to "human wave" military tactics and general incompetence."
These fall under military casualties, which are a function of competence after war has already started. The moral issues of this are beyond the scope of what we are talking about. The massive, intentional, industrialised civilian deaths are what matters morally here.
"I know that you really want to believe that your side was fighting for "good" against "evil", but this is pure delusion."
I am under no illusion that the Allies did bad things, as I have agreed to this several times. But, again, I am biting the bullet: NOT murdering and torturing millions of innocents for psychopatic reasons is good, actually, and doing so is bad, actually, and the people who want the murdering are evil, and those who do not are good (at least in this limited scope), actually. You can be smug about this however much you want, but I maintain that you are wrong, and also callous and insensitive. You have not given me sufficient reasons to agree with you, and have not even made your position clear, which I do not think is conducive to rational, honest discourse (even if done accidentally).
Life is zero-sum at the margin. Populations grow to consume all available resources, and then life becomes a zero-sum struggle. No people can ever have "enough" resources in the long run. In the short run, they can. In recent history, due to the fertility collapse, a population can be stable or even declining despite abundance, but that is not how life normally works (or how it will work in the long run).
Delete"Scarcity is a central tenent of capitalism and supply and demand"
Where did you get this nonsense? What does capitalism have to do with it??
Scarcity is a central fact of reality. The Earth is finite, and life has the capacity for exponential growth.
Economics is zero-sum on a large enough scale of time and space. Yes, we can benefit by cooperating. That's the basis of society. But people cooperate to compete with other people and organisms for resources. Ultimately, life is competitive.
"there is an appropriate level of fear and conflict between humans:
What is the "appropriate" level of fear and conflict? The "natural" condition of human beings is to increase their population until they are engaged in brutal tribal warfare. That's was normal behavior for Homo sapiens for most of its evolutionary history.
Again, conflict is built into the nature of life. The most we can do is create a pragmatopia with eugenic population control, as I have explained in other places.
"He was historically and economically illiterate, then."
Yes, he was an ideologue, not a realist. Nazism was dumb. So is communism. So is humanism. They are all based on moralizing and ignorance/denial of reality.
"NOT murdering and torturing millions of innocents for psychopatic reasons is good, actually, and doing so is bad, actually, and the people who want the murdering are evil, and those who do not are good (at least in this limited scope), actually."
Oh really!? What is this good and evil stuff? Is it written into the stars? Did God whisper it into your ear? Can you point me to this moral dimension of the universe?
Somehow, everyone thinks they are on the "good" side, and their opponents are on the "evil" side. What a strange coincidence.
"By modern Western standards, the Nazis were more evil than the Allies only because they had a different ideology."
ReplyDelete<>
No. It's not that they had a different ideology. It's because their ideology was monstrous and abhorrent. That's why. (The genociding part made it monstrous, not the prioritizing your people portion of it - without the genocide, Nazism is not Nazism.)
"Nazis are considered evil because they were “racist” and (in the modern mythos) the allies weren’t racist. "
No, it was the genociding. Many people were racist and antisemitic at the time and found the industrialized Holocaust disgusting and wrong anyway. Modern people fear racism because, unchecked, it can lead to genocide, as has happened historically several times.
"The Nazi killing of civilians is considered a horrible “crime against humanity” that must be remembered forever, while the Allied killing of civilians is excused and swept under the rug."
Y'know, I haven't seen many Dresden or nuclear bombing defenders out there. People know about these incidents, and generally consider them to be wrong, or just barely justified. Your "excusing and sweeping under the rug" narrative is nonsense.
"That the British and Americans ceased killing once they had won the war was due to the fact that, in their worldview, they had already achieved their objectives and there was nothing to be gained by further killing of Germans."
...Yes? Because their objective was stopping the aggressive war of Germany against themselves/their allies and NOT genociding whole populations, unlike Germany, which wanted to wipe the slavs of the USSR off the map, making the Allies' objectives infinitely less awful? What even is your argument here?
"(The Russians went on a bit of a killing, raping and looting spree.)"
Absolutely correct, needs to be better known. (Though does not excuse Nazism.)
"The Allies and the Nazis both justified their actions as necessary to achieve ends that they claimed to be good. While spouting moralistic propaganda, both sides succeeded in demonstrating the selfish and violent nature of both individuals and societies."
The Allies were infinitely less selfish and violent, and the historical record proves it in magnitude and degree of violence committed. The Allies lost more people, the Allies did not create a system to murder millions of civilians, the Allies defended themselves/their allies from direct assault and subjugation and death. And while propaganda obviously existed on both sides, "kill the german soldiers or they'll murder you" is a lot closer to the truth than "the Jew next door is going to kill you and steal your money, so gas him first".
Fallacy of gray, fallacy of gray!!!!
"It is time we moved both Nazism and WWII from the domain of myth and propaganda to the domain of history. Nazism was a nationalist movement that arose in Germany after WWI for historical reasons, had some minor accomplishments, started a catastrophic war, and lost."
We have, and what you said is known by historians everywhere. The only part you failed to mention is the unprecedented genocide.
You breathe sophisms, I am sorry.
I "breathe sophisms" because I'm just talking about ideas and events without moralizing?
DeleteThere's no fallacy of gray in what I said. I'm just viewing both sides from a detached perspective. I'm not arguing for a middle position between them. Instead, I'm taking a step back and pointing out their similarities and differences.
"The Allies were infinitely less selfish and violent"
No, they had different end goals, and a different ideology.
At the time, Britain had a huge global empire based on trade, and the US was a continent-spanning country with a huge amount of resources and a relatively small population (because they conquered land and replaced native populations). Under Hitler, Germany was trying to do something like what Britain and the US had already done, not long before.
At the time, Germany had a rapidly-growing population. The Nazis were right in understanding that life involves a struggle over finite resources. Their ideology was more realistic/honest in that way. They wanted to take resources from other people to support their growing population. Hitler viewed the East as a frontier (analogous to the American frontier in the 1800s), which could be expanded into. Now, this was extremely naive, because the situation was nothing like the American frontier. But that was his view: that the German people would expand to the East, as the Americans had expanded to the West.
The US and Britain lost far fewer people in the war, both civilians and military, than the Germans. The Soviets had huge casualties, largely due to the fact that they were invaded. They also lost many soldiers due to "human wave" military tactics and general incompetence.
I know that you really want to believe that your side was fighting for "good" against "evil", but this is pure delusion.
You posted a response on the wrong thread. I'm not going to respond to every wall of text that you post. If you want to have an in-depth discussion, it has to be in voice. But I will respond to the one you posted on the other thread.
Delete"You are constantly making moral claims to the effect of "the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis" (you do not say this explicitly, but you do not say that the Nazis were worse explicitly either, and your tone suggest the former - if I am being unfair, I am sorry, but you should then be clearer for the reader). As such, if one claims that a side is worse than another, one is moralising. Do you believe that moralising is in itself bad, and that all actors are equally moral always? Because I doubt that you do."
I never make moral claims. I don't believe in morality. I have several essays on this blog about morality, such as "How I Became Amoral", "Evolution and Morality", "What is Morality?", "The Case Against Moral Realism", etc.
Obviously, you are not interested in my content, which is why you aren't familiar with it, and why you didn't carefully read the essay that you're responding to. You just want to use my space to do your little performance.
So, no, I didn't say "the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis". I said:
"The idea that the Nazis were uniquely evil, according to the modern Western conception of good and evil, is absurd."
I pointed out the hypocrisy of the Allies: that they did many of the things that they condemn the Nazis for doing, such as deliberately killing civilians.
You chose to inject your assumptions into my writing, and then you tell me that I should have been "clearer". I can't force you to read what I wrote. If you can't read and process text without injecting your assumptions into it, that's your problem.
Moralizing is always dishonest, because morality is dishonest. It is a performance, with petty personal motives behind it.
"You "breathe sophisms" because every paragraph of yours is filled with fallacies and bad arguments and lack of sources, which, in my view, counts, and which I have tried to show in all of my comments."
You haven't identified any fallacies or bad arguments. As for sources, I'm not writing an academic essay, and I don't see any reason to clutter my writing with sources, especially since Wikipedia exists.
"A detached perspective in moral argumentation does not entail treating both as the same. Again, you do not explicitly make this claim, but your whole essay leans towards it. If that is not the case, make this clear, otherwise you come across as dishonest even if that was not your intention. It's a matter of framing: you could certainly frame this that the Allies were not saints and that they did awful stuff which is not justified by the awful morality of their opponents - that would be great! But you don't - you seem to nudge the reader towards "because they are so similar, there is actually no meaningful moral difference between them", which is something I vehemently disagree with, and which IS a fallacy of gray."
I framed the essay very clearly, and not as a moral argument. Obviously, you didn't actually read it. You probably skimmed over it, looking for excuses to seethe. Here is what I said:
"In this essay, I am going to analyze and critique the Nazi worldview from a “Darwinian” perspective. I will also critique the popular moral narrative about the Nazis and WWII."
The essay is primarily about whether Nazism is Darwinian (or biologically realistic in general). It is secondarily about the West's moral narrative about Nazism and WWII.
Clearly, you didn't read the essay for content, with an open mind. Instead, you were looking for something to seethe about, so you could do your little dance, prancing around on your moral high horse, yada yada. It's so boring.
Don't bother responding unless you're willing to debate in voice. I don't have infinite patience. I will leave the other walls of text to rot in the spam folder, where they belong.
Sorry about the wrong thread - the layout of the reply buttons was a little confusing. I apologise.
DeleteI do not wish to engage in voice at this time, for personal reasons, but thank you for the invitation :)
Even if poorly, I have engaged with what you have written - it is not "spam". And I have not engaged with the Darwinian portion because I think it is fine and not what I thought wrong with the essay.
I think the content of your reply is wrong, all of it, but I will say one thing: I agree that there is no objective morality, that there is sadly not code written anywhere. However, I do believe certain moral opinions are better than others, subjectively, and I refuse to shrug and accept abhorrent and ill-informed morality (here, of the Nazis, not your own) which, from my view, could lead to endless harm . If it is arbitrary, so be it - I will let my arbitrary evolutionary instincts win.
Have a good day, sir! :)
It is spam because you posted 6 different walls of text. It's like the Gish gallop fallacy. Also, you are arguing against an imaginary moral argument that is not in the essay. I have an essay titled "Critics and Criticism", which defines substantive criticism.
DeleteMorality does not consist of arbitrary evolutionary instincts. It is mostly cultural, although there is a personal component. Evolution isn't arbitrary, and you couldn't evolve an abhorrence of genocide. In a sense, evolution is genocide. Your ancestors did plenty of killing, otherwise you wouldn't be here.
The essay "What is Morality?" explains morality.
Your notions of what moral values are better or worse are circular. Of course your morality seems right to you -- because it is your morality. Of course it seems to do less "harm". And of course the end goals of your ideology justify the means (mass killing of civilians), while the end goals of Nazism do not justify the means (mass killing of civilians).
Length of response relevant to the thing being discussed != gish gallop. I quoted your paragraphs, making it easy to see where I was responding.
DeleteWe have evolutionary instincts for empathy, for social propriety, shame, exclusion etc. etc. which do crystallise into morality, and which culture also modifies, yes. And most (who are not sociopaths) do have an aversion to mass killing and torture of innocents, because its arbitrariness and cruelty is not evolutionarily helpful. Also, fighting over resources != systematic genocide of innocents who did not threaten you or your survival.
I have read your essay. I believe that while evolution optimised us for something (survival and reproduction), this optimisation was done through certain reward signals (our feeling, emotions, instincts) which evolution gave us. The latter, and not the former, is generally meaningful to us and the source of our values, modulated through ration and culture and environment etc. It's a type of mesa-optimisation, to use Reinforcement Learning terminology. After determining and knowing all of this, I reject the notion that morality is objective, while at the same time I do believe that folk morality and moral myths approximate reality well enough, so they are not delusions. People being hypocrites or finding it hard to face their own moral instincts that they have done wrong does not make the whole self-deceptive.
My ideology does not justify mass killing of civilians in almost any situations, it is anathema to it, and the people who justified it are wrong, as I have said. Do not put words in my mouth.
The bases of morality are asserted as axioms, yes. I believe that my axioms are more in line with what most people want or would want if they were better informed, and would produce worlds more worth living in for everyone than the axioms of others. I have already told you they are arbitrary in that sense.
You have arbitrary axioms too. You have political opinions, which are moral opinions (how things should be), even with your moral anti-realism. Moral anti-realism does not invalidate morality or moral discussion or make everyone equivalent.
The barrage of text walls is gish gallop. If you have that much to say, put it on your own blog and post a link.
DeleteYes, we have evolved empathy -- both positive and negative kinds. We have the innate capacity for love and hate, to put it simply. Empathy is conditional and not universal. It does not make us altruistic. It directs kindness toward friends and family, not toward everyone. Positive empathy can be somewhat extended via group identity, but that is usually in opposition to some other group. And yes, we also want social approval and fear disapproval, which is the main driving force behind morality. I've explained morality before, so I won't go into detail here.
We do not have an innate aversion to mass killing, torture, etc. Those are natural human behaviors. In fact, in this very tame modern setting, a large percentage of entertainment centers on those behaviors. People play video games in which they kill enemies, people watch movies in which "bad guys" are tortured and killed, etc.
Fighting over resources does equal the systematic killing of "innocents" -- the innocents who have the resources that you want.
Yes, human behavior is proximately driven by emotions, which are crude evolved heuristics. And yes, culture and social context shape the values that direct more complex types of action, especially social action.
Anyway, you accept that morality is not objective, and yet you believe that "folk morality and moral myths approximate reality well enough, so they are not delusions". But clearly they are delusions/deceptions. The first delusion is that there is objective good and evil. Then there are myths that justify a moral double standard, all of which are variants on the form WE ARE GOOD AND THEY ARE BAD. These are delusions/deceptions. Your position makes no sense. How could a belief in objective good and evil approximate a reality in which there is no moral dimension?
It's not that people are occasionally hypocritical. It's that morality is always hypocritical. Morality doesn't make people nice. It is often used to justify hatred. For example, look at what you are doing here. Did you come here to be nice? Or did you come here to vent your repressed hatred? It's obviously the latter, and you are using morality as your excuse for hating me.
"My ideology does not justify mass killing of civilians in almost any situations, it is anathema to it, and the people who justified it are wrong, as I have said. Do not put words in my mouth."
You said this:
"Orders of magnitude less, in endlessly less barbaric and more lenient ways, for instrumental reasons (win the war as quickly as possible to prevent MORE death) as opposed to disgusting final goals (murder everyone because they are intrinsically inferior and wrong and evil even if innocent)."
The US and UK followed a strategy of targeting civilians with mass bombing of cities. You justify this because it was supposedly for goals that you approve of, ideologically.
As I said, any ideology can be used to justify mass-killing. In fact, that's one of the main functions of ideologies. Again, the communists supposedly believed in universal brotherhood, but they used that ideology to justify mass killing.
"The bases of morality are asserted as axioms, yes."
DeleteVery few people have explicit moral axioms. Most attempts to axiomatize morality lead to counter-intuitive conclusions, because morality is intrinsically ad hoc and dishonest.
So what are your moral axioms? I'm curious.
"You have arbitrary axioms too"
I never said anything about morality being arbitrary. I have a philosophical system, which has a core that could be called "arbitrary" in a sense, but that's another topic. It has no moral axioms. I can make judgments about society and civilization without pretending that there is objective good and evil. Right now, morality is an obstacle to solving our collective problems. (And yes, we can define collective problems without believing in an objective moral dimension.)
"Moral anti-realism does not invalidate morality or moral discussion or make everyone equivalent."
Moral anti-realism does invalidate morality, because morality assumes that good and evil really exist, just as religion assumes that God really exists. So yes, I reject morality as delusion/deception.
So wall of text in comments = gish gallop, wall of text outside comments != not gish gallop. Got it.
DeleteIn every culture, people feel queasy with killing, chimps feel guilt and shame too so they are not completely culturally imposed. If you told a caveman that some guy raped, skinned and ate every single member of some other tribal group, even an enemy one, he would probably not feel well at hearing that information.
We seem to believe different degrees to how innate moral instincts are - you believe most are culturally imposed, I believe most are innate. I believe universal cross-cultural similarities, from every level of civilization, as well as analogues in primates like chimps support my analysis (the latter less prone to common prisoner's dillemma solutions due to decreased rationality of chimps). I believe every person who first attended an Aztec sacrifice did not feel good, before eventualy numbing to them. And yes - hatred exists, I do not contest that - it is another moral impulse.
I am not talking about altruism, as you define it. I do believe that, even if all emotions were evolved for selfish ends, the feeling of those emotions is genuine (that genuine aspect itself being evolutionarily helpful). I do not agree with calling them "dishonest" - shame and guilt and repugnance feel genuine, even if evolution has other plans (I am not evolution).
Video games/movies are a) usually sanitized, b) people are given moral reason (such as defense) to make them not queasy about killing their opponents, and (most importantly) c) the experience is so divorced in consequences and overall feeling from the real thing so as to not trigger relevant disgusts and shame and fear and moral abhorrence. In fact, that people make fictional examples to vent some base impulses, and not go out and do them, is an indication of positive moral feeling.
In caveman setting, yes. In WW2 - no. People had, roughly, enough resources at that scale - certainly enough to subjugate and not massacre.
That part about objectivity is not true, yes. But people do assume that their moral instincts translate over to everyone, approximately. This is true - besides sociopaths, we all have similar emotional architecture.
(SIdenote: I believe in a multi-agent model of mind. We are not coherent wholes, we have multiple interacting parts within us, and all of them have different goals and induce different emotions and feelings to out body and our though-stream. We have empathy agents, hatred agents, logic agents etc.)
If morality does not make people nice, those who dedicated their lives to finding cures for disease or international aid would not be nice ("they selfishly satisfy their desires" - to make everything better because they like it, "not true altruism" etc. Yes, I agree, but it does not functionally matter, at least for me).
I do not hate you. It's just that one of your supporters linked this blog-post from the explicit claim that "the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis". You do not make this claim in this post, and that clouded my judgement. I am sorry - I was in a bad place emotionally, and I am not usually like this. I should have been nicer in my earlier comments. You saw through me. I apologise for my actions, sir.
DeleteI said that it is more defensible, not that it is correct. I was not explicit about that, though, I apologise - I agree with the people who say those actions were not justified. The Allies insufficiently followed the tenets of their morality (the Nazis did, but I hold their morality to be greatly worse from their get-go).
I am some flavour of utilitarian - roughly, minimize suffering and maximize happiness/all we value, for the most people possible. Under this morality, what the Allies did was bad (they increased death and suffering), but one could justify it by saying that, on the whole, their actions would prevent suffering, and thus actually be aligned with this morality (I disagree, though there are probably (fantasy) situations were I would - "bomb Dresden or Galacton wipes out the entire Solar System", that kind of thing).
The Nazis wanted to maximise suffering for a group of people, so their morality is opposed to mine (and if you say that they tried to minimize their own suffering - I consider that much imbalance between one's group and others, in an abundant context, to be an indication of insufficient moral effort, or downright sociopathy).
Communism was awful while preaching good things, correct. The same comments above apply.
Ad hoc, maybe. I do see moral philosophy as an attempt to make these instincts universally aplicable and coherent, which is hard. Dishonest, no - see above.
I am sorry, but politics derive from morality (how things should be). If you have political opinions, you have moral opinions, even if not systematized. You can make moral claims without claiming for them to be objective - just say that they are subjective, your own. This is what I do (or should, morally, do :) ).
"I apologise for my actions, sir."
DeleteThanks, apology accepted.
I released all of your comments from purgatory, but I don't know if I will have time to read all of them.
There is difference between posting a large volume of text in a comment section versus putting it in your own space. If nothing else, at least it forces you to have more skin in the game. The "critic" pose is very easy to adopt, and very low risk.
The barrage of text is a common tactic in internet debate. It is an attempt to overwhelm the other side, get the last word (at any point in time), and place a huge burden of proof on the other side (while accepting almost no burden of proof).
Voice is a better medium for debate, although it has its own problems.
"I am some flavour of utilitarian - roughly, minimize suffering and maximize happiness/all we value, for the most people possible."
This not a clear statement of moral axioms. Also, I see no reason why a person could not justify Nazism in the same moral framework. You can justify almost anything by claiming that it will produce more happiness in the long run.
Your morality is probably basically Hedonic Utilitarianism, defined here: https://thewaywardaxolotl.blogspot.com/2024/06/hedonic-utilitarianism.html
Your morality, as you describe it, has a moral circle: people. So, it is analogous to Nazism in that way: you elevate some (people) above other sentient beings, just as the Nazis had their in-group. You care about people more than cows, pigs, etc. If so, does that make you a psychopath?
"The Nazis wanted to maximize suffering"
There is nothing in the Nazi ideology about maximizing the suffering of others, as far as I know. They also had the strictest laws protecting animals.
Politics, as a bullshit game, depends on morality as a bullshit generator. However, politics isn't very good at solving problems, unless the problems can be solved by going to war.
Society does not depend on morality. That's part of the moral delusion. Society is based on cooperation between selfish agents. Collective values can be derived from individual values without any pretense of cosmic value. For example, a sports team can cooperate to beat another sports team, even though the players understand that neither outcome is cosmically good or bad.
One of the problems with morality is that it encourages us to cast blame at others for our problems, rather than accepting responsibility ourselves. The Nazis are an example of that. Hitler's political program was based on casting blame at outsiders. I've talked about this in "Ideology and Violence" and other places.
"Thanks, apology accepted."
DeleteThank you :)
"I released all of your comments from purgatory, but I don't know if I will have time to read all of them."
Thank you, that is fair.
"There is difference between posting a large volume of text in a comment section versus putting it in your own space. If nothing else, at least it forces you to have more skin in the game. The "critic" pose is very easy to adopt, and very low risk."
I never saw it like that, but you are right. Thanks :)
"The barrage of text is a common tactic in internet debate. It is an attempt to overwhelm the other side, get the last word (at any point in time), and place a huge burden of proof on the other side (while accepting almost no burden of proof).
Voice is a better medium for debate, although it has its own problems."
I wholeheartedly agree.
"This not a clear statement of moral axioms."
Correct. I am still figuring it out, and absolutely do not claim to have the last word. Thing is, most edge cases for its various flavours are far enough from real situations to make me confident enough when something is off in the real world.
"Also, I see no reason why a person could not justify Nazism in the same moral framework. You can justify almost anything by claiming that it will produce more happiness in the long run."
True, I suppose, but those arguments are arguing for something a lot more concrete - that something will increase happiness (not that this is right, per se, just that it will objectively happen). And I have yet to hear a convincing (or, frankly, even an honest) argument for that.
"Your morality is probably basically Hedonic Utilitarianism, defined here: https://thewaywardaxolotl.blogspot.com/2024/06/hedonic-utilitarianism.html"
Correct - I have read your post. I will mention that 1) even short-term pleasure is better than nothing, ceteris paribus, 2) (emotional) valence is a more general concept which does stretch across a longer time, and which can occasionally escape the hedonic treadmill (people after life-altering accidents, while they rebound, generally feel worse; people after marriage, while they rebound, still generally feel better - see this wonderful article https://labs.psychology.illinois.edu/~ediener/Documents/Diener-Lucas-Scollon_2006.pdf ), 3) by "pleasure" I do include higher pleasures, such as art, beauty, knowledge etc. which give more long-lasting happiness, and 4) life satisfaction is also less temporary than pleasure. Base hedonism leads to nowhere, though, I agree.
Delete"Your morality, as you describe it, has a moral circle: people. So, it is analogous to Nazism in that way: you elevate some (people) above other sentient beings, just as the Nazis had their in-group. You care about people more than cows, pigs, etc. If so, does that make you a psychopath?"
Psychopaths do show severely decreased empathy towards animals too (kids torturing cats is a well-know clue for a future ASPD diagnosis). Most people have empathy towards animals, even if it is overall lower than for humans. And this is an on-going discussion in utilitarianism: how do you measure and account for the pleasure and suffering of animals? There have been entire blog post series trying to answer what should count here, how cognizant animals are and how much pain they exprience relative to humans (see here https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/s/sHWwN8XydhXyAnxFs ). I recognise I maybe care less about this than others, and believe that sorting out human well-being first is a better step towards maximising the well-being of ALL sentient creatures eventually - but I am sympathetic to the efforts of animal rights activists, and willing to engage with them. The ability to feel pain is somewhat of a function of having a developed nervous system, and qualia - this coupled with humans' greater potential for solving these problems in the first place, makes me give them a greater place than animals, in the short-term, at least. However, I do not wholly discard animals and actively wish for their pain and death (Nazis absolutely discarded Jews and slavs and etc. and wished for their pain and death).
"There is nothing in the Nazi ideology about maximizing the suffering of others, as far as I know. They also had the strictest laws protecting animals."
Murdering/enslaving millions of innocents, with the goal of eradicating them/keeping them enslaved forever, is maximising suffering (I guess it is below endless torture, but still, not a goal of preventing pain). As for the animal laws - good for them, those laws might be perfectly reasonable. It does not justify what they have done.
"Politics, as a bullshit game, depends on morality as a bullshit generator. However, politics isn't very good at solving problems, unless the problems can be solved by going to war."
I disagree, and find parliamentary democracy with competing ideologies preferable to a vast majority of other variants, but I see your point.
"Society does not depend on morality. That's part of the moral delusion. Society is based on cooperation between selfish agents. Collective values can be derived from individual values without any pretense of cosmic value. For example, a sports team can cooperate to beat another sports team, even though the players understand that neither outcome is cosmically good or bad."
I suppose I agree! (Though not with my definition of morality as our moral sentiments, which are necessary, lest we all kill each other into extinction.) Thing is, it might be so that these ideas would not survive, memetically, without the strong cosmic value angle. This does not make it true, of course.
"One of the problems with morality is that it encourages us to cast blame at others for our problems, rather than accepting responsibility ourselves. The Nazis are an example of that. Hitler's political program was based on casting blame at outsiders. I've talked about this in "Ideology and Violence" and other places."
I disagree - I believe that insufficiently applied morality is the issue. One may very well be right that the other is morally wrong - but those same principles should be applied to oneself too, consistently. In this way blame can be assigned fairly, everyone judged correctly, and better solutions be put in place. Doing that is hard, and not many people do it, sadly. But striving to be better is the only thing we can do.
The humanist ideology has one clear advantage over other ideologies, such as Nazism: on many occasions, it doesn't impose censorship on people and allows them to say what they want to say. This is why the Internet is a relatively safe space for people who live in countries whose ideology is humanism: you can post essays and debate the ideas mentioned in them.
ReplyDeleteWe have relatively free speech for now. That is associated with humanism, but also with Protestantism (to some extent). However, there is censorship that is justified in humanist terms. E.g. the taboo on race differences, "hate speech" laws, etc.
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